2.0 Litre conversion - Alfa Romeo 4C Forums
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post #1 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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2.0 Litre conversion

Well we have got the 2.0 litre engine conversion turning over job for this half of the year is to get it running!

Jamie Porter
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post #2 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:18 PM
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So that's why you've been so quiet. I thought you dropped that big turbo on your head!

This is getting interesting...

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post #3 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 01:31 AM
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I'm number 2 with an interest in this project. Got 2 go now.

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post #4 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 05:57 AM Thread Starter
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Hybrid turbo has been on a while but it does not give enough power. You may have noticed but most tuners are getting around 280-290 bhp with standard inlets, the difference is probably related to atmospheric conditions/rolling road variations so the question is why?

There are 2 options

1. There is a limit in the engine management system we have not found, this is a distinct possibility.

2. The turbo cant flow any more.

So we are working on two ways round this,

1. A BIG turbo if we get a decent amount more power we know its a turbo issue. Having had a good look at turbo compressor wheels last week and the size manufacturers use in order to get 300+ bhp we are sadly looking a bit inadequate!

2. More cc's, if power does increase with the increase in cc's, 250cc's should give us around 40 bhp, then we know the turbo can flow more while still keeping below the boost limit, we then have an ecu issue and we are being limited by a boost pressure limit

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post #5 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-17-2017, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiealfa View Post
Hybrid turbo has been on a while but it does not give enough power. You may have noticed but most tuners are getting around 280-290 bhp with standard inlets, the difference is probably related to atmospheric conditions/rolling road variations so the question is why?

There are 2 options

1. There is a limit in the engine management system we have not found, this is a distinct possibility.

2. The turbo cant flow any more.

So we are working on two ways round this,

1. A BIG turbo if we get a decent amount more power we know its a turbo issue. Having had a good look at turbo compressor wheels last week and the size manufacturers use in order to get 300+ bhp we are sadly looking a bit inadequate!

2. More cc's, if power does increase with the increase in cc's, 250cc's should give us around 40 bhp, then we know the turbo can flow more while still keeping below the boost limit, we then have an ecu issue and we are being limited by a boost pressure limit
I wrote this before, but to answer you:


1. Yes there are limitations in the ECU. Not just one!
2. The turbo delivers up to 2.7 bar boost. 3700mbar inlet manifold pressure!


The way around this is:


1. Find the limitation, do a proper development and you can achieve a real 325hp
2. The engine is good for about 400 hp if you change some of the internals etc. But it makes no sense to go for that unless you want to change the transmission for example to a Tractive or 3MO sequential gearbox or you go high reving like the AVL-engine that hits its peak performance at 8000 rpm in combination with a manual gearbox.


but it is okay if you want to find out that by yourself.


best regards


Alex

Last edited by 4CRacer; 01-17-2017 at 08:56 PM.
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post #6 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 12:01 PM Thread Starter
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From our analysis of the internals the pistons seem to be the weak point and we have a limit of around 320-330 bhp on them while the rods will take around 350 but the crank will take in excess of 400 in our opinion, would you agree with this ?
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post #7 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-18-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiealfa View Post
From our analysis of the internals the pistons seem to be the weak point and we have a limit of around 320-330 bhp on them while the rods will take around 350 but the crank will take in excess of 400 in our opinion, would you agree with this ?
That is just guessing. Honestly I dont know. I know that it can stand 325 hp with no problem. For more power we need to do additional changes on the map-sensor and then later on on the injectors. If the pistons and rods will stand more power then 350 hp you will probably find out while trying. (If somebody tries that) You can go the secure way and change the pistons, rods etc. in advance so you know they are not going to be the weakest part, but if that is really necessary you can just find out if you try without. Maybe it is possible to achieve that amount of power without any changes on pistons etc. Who knows. Everything you said about the pistons etc. is not very unlikely to be true or at least plausible. I can tell you more about this if we tried it but so far we are not working on that or plan to do so soon.


The reason is, that it makes no sense without solving the problem of the transmission and later on in getting the power to the ground. If there is somebody out there who is willing to spend about 35-40.000 € at least on a 400 hp+ version of the 4C we will start working on one. That would mean change to a sequential gearbox, modify engine and cooling system, create wider body kit for bigger tires and test, test, test ...


It is no big deal if you dont mind the time and money that needs to be spent.


best regards


Alex
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post #8 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 03:49 AM Thread Starter
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I hear what you are saying, however I still think that I was correct in my initial assessment that no one is going above 280-290 bhp with the standard inlet, I note that in order to get 325 bhp you are changing the intake system, fitting a sports cat and replacing a intake pressure sensor do you think that this could be where you are getting the power hike from. It is pretty well established on the forum that a inlet system is worth 15 bhp and a sports exhaust has got to be worth the same which would take you back to 295 bhp?

The advantage of the extra cc's is you can use the same maps, turbo etc while still gaining the extra power as the yanks say there is no substitute for cc's.

The turbo we use on the 4C has a known issue with the shaft breaking when tuned which is one reason for changing the turbo if you are after more power. Please reference VW's 2.0l tfsi engine for more info on this.

The pistons reliable power limits have been checked and are in the region of the value I suggest, that is not a guess, you have been warned

Being a direct injection engine that can inject extremely fast there is a good chance that the injectors will go to very high powers

Jamie Porter

Last edited by jamiealfa; 01-19-2017 at 03:55 AM.
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post #9 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 10:33 AM
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We did not change the inlet. It is not necessary at all. The limitations are within the software and not within the hardware! The new downpipe and the moved cat to the end of the exhaust system is just because of durability reasons (exhaust temperatures). The stock map sensor cannot handle the boost we are using, so we needed to change it. But even this part has its limits. If we want to go to the top we need a third option, which is available. We dont need it because we cant operate the rest of the hardware with more power and more torque without having a high risk of damaging it in a long term perspective.


Turbo reliability is not an issue on the 4C so far. There are for sure differences between a K04 charger for VW and Alfa. But most important is, that we have three cars, that we drove for over 90.000 Km in total and about 10.000 Km on the racetrack with no damage at all. The new tune now has done about 500 Autobahnkilometers and about 500 Trackkilometers as well. Because of the winter, we were not able to do any more testing so far. But we will continue as soon as possible. We will not sell anything before we dont managed to do a 1000 Track-Kilometers without a problem even though all engine-data from the development on the rolling-road show that there is no problem to be expected.


It took us quite some time and a huge amount of money to find out everything about the ECU and to get a 100% access. If you dont know the right people and you dont want to make a complete development like a OEM normally does there is probably no way you will get the same results by yourself.


What do the extra cc´s do for you if the engine can measure its performance output and limits it? Injectors will not be able to deliver enough fuel over 2,15 bars!
We are not aiming for higher power, so the pistons should be fine according to what you wrote. :-)


best regards


Alex

Last edited by 4CRacer; 01-19-2017 at 10:39 AM.
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post #10 of 133 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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I really dont think we are saying anything different here and I totally agree with what you say I am slightly concerned over the turbo and the issues VW are having with it and the shaft failing but as you say they are trying to produce more more power than we have here so it should not be an issue to us yet

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