Finally experienced the "swerving" feel everyone talked about...... - Page 6 - Alfa Romeo 4C Forums
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post #51 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-24-2018, 10:40 PM
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Does anyone know if this issue was fixed for the 2017 and 2018 models? I am considering getting one, but do not want to deal with any extra work if possible ....
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post #52 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-24-2018, 10:41 PM
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Does anyone know if this issue was fixed for the 2017 and 2018 models? I am considering getting one, but do not want to deal with any extra work if possible ....


Itís an Alfa... always need a little love


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post #53 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 08:30 AM
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Does anyone know if this issue was fixed for the 2017 and 2018 models? I am considering getting one, but do not want to deal with any extra work if possible ....
I don't know that there ever was an issue to be fixed. Drive a properly aligned car and then decide if you like it.

I haven't heard of any running production changes. I think the alignment specs are the same across all years, but I'm not certain of that.

I don't have any complaints with my 2018. My steering line certainly does not change a lot in sweepers with added throttle. I have no trouble turning the steering wheel enough to avoid hitting curbs! (This one is funny...I swear the crash wasn't my fault! The car didn't turn enough!). Even lift-throttle oversteer in fast turns is mild for a rear mid-engine car (as compared to my Ford GT in which the rear end will instantly become the front end with no nannies to save your bacon). I attribute this to the 4C's small engine/trans mass and short wheelbase low polar moment as compared to a longer wheelbase with a big honkin' SC/TC V8/V10/V12 back there. And, the nannies are still there even in race mode.

As rkberta says, cars are designed with mild understeer. But there is a difference between mild understeer and "quite a bit" of understeer. I think any car with quite a bit of understeer has something wrong, especially a sports car. But don't make decisions based on subjective reports.

Objectively, the 4C has minimal caster. And, manual steering is literally unique today. If you don't like the effect, there seems to be broad consensus that "Jamie's blocks" allow enough caster to add more straight line stability for relatively small cost and effort. Further, they allow more negative camber, which you don't need for the street, but which virtually every car benefits from on the track. And we have Gale Motorsports doing real world development and personal track testing of suspension components. It's great to have this level of support for a low production car.
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post #54 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 09:16 AM
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This is a good one from Walter Rohrl:



"When you see the tree you're going to hit, that's called understeer. If you can only hear and feel it, it's oversteer."
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post #55 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 09:56 AM
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My experience is, like @4Canada , is on well run roads. Previous cars would effortlessly take the corners and turns like it was magnetically held to the road. The 4c tends to slide the front especially as the speed increases (obviously). But the same conditions as my other cars that never budged. This is in no way a complaint- different cars are just that- different. But I’m totally brand new to this car. It takes a bit of trial and error, plus getting to know what works and doesn’t work by forums like this. By others that have gone before.
One obvious difference is my rubber. I had super grippy tires before. And much wider front tires. But it does understeer. No question
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post #56 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 10:36 AM
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This is a good one from Walter Rohrl:
"When you see the tree you're going to hit, that's called understeer. If you can only hear and feel it, it's oversteer."


The Rohrl phrase is used at all BMW M driving schools




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Originally Posted by Treetopflyer View Post
My experience is, like @4Canada , is on well run roads. Previous cars would effortlessly take the corners and turns like it was magnetically held to the road. The 4c tends to slide the front especially as the speed increases (obviously). But the same conditions as my other cars that never budged. This is in no way a complaint- different cars are just that- different. But Iím totally brand new to this car. It takes a bit of trial and error, plus getting to know what works and doesnít work by forums like this. By others that have gone before.
One obvious difference is my rubber. I had super grippy tires before. And much wider front tires. But it does understeer. No question
As for the above, could the sliding be caused by slight over input by driver? One thing I have noticed coming from the M4 & M2 is the fact I tend to put too much steering wheel input in while cornering which loads the front. It was a big difference going from the M4 to the M2 which had geometry and tire stretch set up for fast turn in not found in the M4. So I had to learn not overpower the wheel.... now I find the same thing going from the M2 to the 4c. Just an observation.....

I am still trying to figure out the 4c steering feel on fast roads
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post #57 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ehagerty View Post
This is a good one from Walter Rohrl:
"When you see the tree you're going to hit, that's called understeer. If you can only hear and feel it, it's oversteer."


The Rohrl phrase is used at all BMW M driving schools [IMG class=inlineimg]/images/4C-Forums_2015/smilies/tango_face_wink.png[/IMG]




Quote:
Originally Posted by Treetopflyer View Post
My experience is, like @4Canada , is on well run roads. Previous cars would effortlessly take the corners and turns like it was magnetically held to the road. The 4c tends to slide the front especially as the speed increases (obviously). But the same conditions as my other cars that never budged. This is in no way a complaint- different cars are just that- different. But I’m totally brand new to this car. It takes a bit of trial and error, plus getting to know what works and doesn’t work by forums like this. By others that have gone before.
One obvious difference is my rubber. I had super grippy tires before. And much wider front tires. But it does understeer. No question
As for the above, could the sliding be caused by slight over input by driver? One thing I have noticed coming from the M4 & M2 is the fact I tend to put too much steering wheel input in while cornering which loads the front. It was a big difference going from the M4 to the M2 which had geometry and tire stretch set up for fast turn in not found in the M4. So I had to learn not overpower the wheel.... now I find the same thing going from the M2 to the 4c. Just an observation.....

I am still trying to figure out the 4c steering feel on fast roads [IMG class=inlineimg]/images/4C-Forums_2015/smilies/tango_face_plain.png[/IMG]
Entirely possible. In fact, probable. I’m no pro driver. Not even close. I’m a weekend warrior. I guess all I can do is compare the way my previous cars reacted to my crappy driving. Lol
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post #58 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 10:59 AM
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Entirely possible. In fact, probable. Iím no pro driver. Not even close. Iím a weekend warrior. I guess all I can do is compare the way my previous cars reacted to my crappy driving. Lol
Believe me brother.....I am with you there
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post #59 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Treetopflyer View Post
My experience is, like @4Canada , is on well run roads. Previous cars would effortlessly take the corners and turns like it was magnetically held to the road. The 4c tends to slide the front especially as the speed increases (obviously). But the same conditions as my other cars that never budged. This is in no way a complaint- different cars are just that- different. But Iím totally brand new to this car. It takes a bit of trial and error, plus getting to know what works and doesnít work by forums like this. By others that have gone before.
One obvious difference is my rubber. I had super grippy tires before. And much wider front tires. But it does understeer. No question
Also, most of our other cars have likely been heavier, and usually featured a honking big block of iron ahead of the front wheels. Unless your last ride was a Lotus, what one has driven in the past is really not a relevant frame of reference for the 4C. Iím certain that this has more to do with the difference in feel/reaction/impressions of the 4C than minor changes in alignment.

No question, production cars are designed with mild understeer for safety. But not with the ditch-seeking behaviour that some of us experience.

Still, the takeaway here is that there are valid ways to improve the handling. Driver education is one, but far from the only. Alignment changes, tire inflation, size or compound are others. In the end, anyone can do with their cars what they want. But itís good to know the options.

I think that the experience is hilighted by Chris Harrisí bipolar reviews of the 4C. He loved one in Italy on track and absolutely hated it in the UK on regular roads. It could be the nature of the roads, possibly he was prompted to offer a more negative report for whatever reason, or it might have quite simply been alignment differences between the two examples of this hand-built car. Weíll never know for certain, but alignment is as good an explanation as any.

Weíve certainly had a wide variety of experiences reported here. And many have done alignments on new-out-of-box cars only to find that the initial settings were way out of even Alfaís spec. Letís just say that Mario had more than his share of bad days while setting up the cars in Modena.

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post #60 of 74 (permalink) Old 11-25-2018, 11:30 AM
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Well, here's the deal. Don't push it on public roads -- it's not the place.


On track, my suggestion would be to enter faster. You need to control oversteer/understeer with weight transfer, not with steering angle. Perfect turn for the 4C is to enter with some trail brake to rotate and then pick up maintenance throttle through the turn (gently -- turbo lag). On faster turns, skip the trail brake. Just being off throttle is enough to move the weight forward. At rest, our car is ~ 40% front/60% rear. Without some weight transfer onto the front tires, you don't have a chance.


This is actually one of the benefits of getting good instruction on track. It takes a lot of coaching to get people to enter turns at the correct speed. Going faster (but not TOO fast) opens up a lot of car behavior options that you don't have when going at "normal" speeds. It's a liberating surprise for intermediate to advanced students (and a real reward to an instructor the first few times a student "gets" it). And remember, trail braking is LIGHT braking. A car can't aggressively brake and turn at the same time.


In good hands, the 4C rotates incredibly well. Even on the stock ARs.
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