Alfa Romeo 4C Forums banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
311 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My situation:
4C coupé, 18 "& 19" wheels, standard suspension, 2,5 cm. wheel spacers on the rear axle. Use only on the road (no track).
👉🏻I ask friends with more experience than me for advice: I was told that with this kit the particular sensitivity of the car to follow the irregularities of the road should be mitigated. What do I do? Do I buy it?
Gas Circle Auto part Font Metal

“With this kit you can change camber and caster as you want to your 4C. You can go do over 3° of camber (stock is 0.5°) or max 4,5° of caster (stock is 1,5°) to have a better confidence with the car going straight.”
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,865 Posts
This appears to be a ******* version of the camber/caster plates ('suspension blocks") offered by Alfa Workshop and Gale Motorsports.

Not knowing the origins of this kit, I cannot comment on it. I suppose that the washers are an acceptable means of adjustment, but I'm a little leery just the same.
The AW and GMS product are designed to just go on the car, and you can adjust the alignment further with the factory shim plates if you so desire (such as to get more negative camber).
I have no idea how these are set up, or why the washers.
You can, for the most part, get the same alignment results by just using shims (or washers perhaps, but again I'm leery about those). The trick is knowing the alignment specs that you are shooting for, and the AW and GMS ones are basically those in a can. Otherwise, it is trial and error on an alignment rack and testing on the street. There are threads on the ideal alignment spec if you would prefer to just go that route and save on buying any of these products (but that involves paying for alignment rack time, so you aren't going to be any further ahead in the end).
In all cases, you will likely need to adjust toe after these are installed.

If you don't have issues with the steering having a mind of its own, and as you said you are only using your 4C for the street, then I'd not buy anything and just enjoy it as is.
Those who track want the ability to add more front negative camber than the stock blocks will allow.
If you have tramlining problems then you might want to consider one of the options above.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,321 Posts
What tyres do you have? A change to Michelin helps. I’ve zeroed the front toe and increased negative camber for more bite and less understeer on corner entry. The steering still has character but is much better than when it came from the factory. I haven’t mucked about with increased wheel and tyre widths.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts
This appears to be a *** version of the camber/caster plates ('suspension blocks") offered by Alfa Workshop and Gale Motorsports.

Not knowing the origins of this kit, I cannot comment on it. I suppose that the washers are an acceptable means of adjustment, but I'm a little leery just the same.
The AW and GMS product are designed to just go on the car, and you can adjust the alignment further with the factory shim plates if you so desire (such as to get more negative camber).
I have no idea how these are set up, or why the washers.
You can, for the most part, get the same alignment results by just using shims (or washers perhaps, but again I'm leery about those). The trick is knowing the alignment specs that you are shooting for, and the AW and GMS ones are basically those in a can. Otherwise, it is trial and error on an alignment rack and testing on the street. There are threads on the ideal alignment spec if you would prefer to just go that route and save on buying any of these products (but that involves paying for alignment rack time, so you aren't going to be any further ahead in the end).
In all cases, you will likely need to adjust toe after these are installed.

If you don't have issues with the steering having a mind of its own, and as you said you are only using your 4C for the street, then I'd not buy anything and just enjoy it as is.
Those who track want the ability to add more front negative camber than the stock blocks will allow.
If you have tramlining problems then you might want to consider one of the options above.
With all due respect, the steering does not have a mind of its own. The light weight and wide front tires do have some tramlining issues but if you have the car aligned to factory specs (which apparently wasn't possible in the factory when they were being built) it will go where you want it to with very little drama. Any car with manual steering and wide front tires will "hunt" at the road in different degrees, you simply allow the car to find it's path and keep the steering pointed where you want it to go.
There was a story many decades ago about the Group 44 Jag at LeMans (run on real streets) Apparently the car was almost undrivable because of the tramlining over the groves and ruts in the pavement. Goodyear suggested increasing the tire pressures by about 10% and the tramlining went away. I would suggest checking your alignment specs and tires pressures very carefully before you start modifying the suspension.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
578 Posts
I deduce that you too are to leave everything standard…
I am leery of using a modification with little documentation unless you or your mechanic have high confidence and experience along with quality product. I don’t use modified geometry but have adjusted toe and camber, while others like their cars with blocks, wheel spacers, uniballs and other approaches for their specific use and preferences. There is not a standard solution. Tire type and inflation make a big difference. Select the tire that fits your driving needs, then go from there to alignment and further modifications. It might take a few or more tries to find the right combo for your preferences. Good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
311 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
My 4C has Pirelli: so at the next change I will try Michelin😉
Friends of the forum your personal advice and experiences are...a real treasure! Thank you again😃
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alfanut

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,321 Posts
With all due respect, the steering does not have a mind of its own. The light weight and wide front tires do have some tramlining issues but if you have the car aligned to factory specs (which apparently wasn't possible in the factory when they were being built) it will go where you want it to with very little drama. Any car with manual steering and wide front tires will "hunt" at the road in different degrees, you simply allow the car to find it's path and keep the steering pointed where you want it to go.
There was a story many decades ago about the Group 44 Jag at LeMans (run on real streets) Apparently the car was almost undrivable because of the tramlining over the groves and ruts in the pavement. Goodyear suggested increasing the tire pressures by about 10% and the tramlining went away. I would suggest checking your alignment specs and tires pressures very carefully before you start modifying the suspension.
😂 Try front toe-out going into turn 1 at Eastern Creek at 160km/h. Impossible to use a precise turn-in point because you don’t know which sideways way the car will jump. 😂🙄😲😢
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
My 4C has Pirelli: so at the next change I will try Michelin😉
Friends of the forum your personal advice and experiences are...a real treasure! Thank you again😃
unfortunately michelin with standard measures 18/19 there are none available
the pirelli arr are out of production
I ordered the Goodyear eagle f1 Supersport R, we hope they are good
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
578 Posts
unfortunately michelin with standard measures 18/19 there are none available
the pirelli arr are out of production
I ordered the Goodyear eagle f1 Supersport R, we hope they are good
First, I have never had a car before the 4C that is as sensitive to tire type, tire pressure and inflation. With that said:

Goodyears sound nice! I don’t know if the Supersport R are available in the US in 4C sizes. If it is a 200tw “r-spec” tire it will be pretty sensitive and with lots of traction. It may be obvious but tires with very stiff sidewalls will be more sensitive and responsive. My summer tires are Bridgestone re71r (215/45-17, 245/40-18) and follow road irregularities much more aggressively than my winter General G-Max all season (214/40-18, 245/35-19) which exhibit almost no tramlining.

Under very heavy driving the r-spec tires will cause the rear end to be twitchy. I have experienced this with the re71r and would anticipate this with the Goodyears. Cure is rear rubber bushing replacement with metal uniball bushings but unless you are really driving hard you probably won’t experience the rear twitch.

Many 4C drivers, myself included have used 215 and 245 width tires which reduces tramlining. There is good experience here as well with Michelin PS4S and continental extremecontact sport in the 215/245 combo. For reference my 2020 spider is also base/standard suspension. On factory alignment it was good on OEM 18/19 Pirelli pZero AR. My current alignment is zero toe, 1.5 degrees camber using just shims and factory castor. Blocks will provide more caster adjustment. You can get more camber with just shims.

It is a process to get it dialed in for your driving!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
in Italia si può circolare solo con le misure che sono scritte sulla carta di circolazione dell'auto
se vai in giro con gomme più larghe rischi il ritiro del libretto, una grossa multa e devi portare l'auto alla revisione ministeriale, quindi purtroppo vanno usate solo le misure di serie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
578 Posts
in Italia si può circolare solo con le misure che sono scritte sulla carta di circolazione dell'auto
se vai in giro con gomme più larghe rischi il ritiro del libretto, una grossa multa e devi portare l'auto alla revisione ministeriale, quindi purtroppo vanno usate solo le misure di serie
Ah, yes I forgot about that.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,865 Posts
With all due respect, the steering does not have a mind of its own. The light weight and wide front tires do have some tramlining issues but if you have the car aligned to factory specs (which apparently wasn't possible in the factory when they were being built) it will go where you want it to with very little drama. Any car with manual steering and wide front tires will "hunt" at the road in different degrees, you simply allow the car to find it's path and keep the steering pointed where you want it to go.
There was a story many decades ago about the Group 44 Jag at LeMans (run on real streets) Apparently the car was almost undrivable because of the tramlining over the groves and ruts in the pavement. Goodyear suggested increasing the tire pressures by about 10% and the tramlining went away. I would suggest checking your alignment specs and tires pressures very carefully before you start modifying the suspension.
Definitely, not everyone experiences the same degree of tramlining.

First off, Alfa appears to have become much better at factory alignments after the second or third year of 4C production (after this became widely reported on in auto circles). So 2016+ cars seem to have come with better settings from Italy. My LE (I'm the first owner) tramlined much more than my 2016 (second owner - may have been fixed by the first but he only drove it a couple thousand km's). It certainly became less of a topic of discussion here after people took delivery of new cars around about 2017.
So if your car is 2016 or newer, or was previously owned and potentially corrected, you might not understand the extent of the problem.

Second variable is the roads. I recall the posts but not the owner's name - someone here had mocked the tramlining issue for quite some time as they drove throughout the US north east. They had a complete reversal of attitude shortly after moving to Florida and driving the same car on hurricane-crowned highways. Similarly, Chris Harris was in love with the Alfa's steering when he experienced an early car on the track at Balocco but completely changed his mind after driving it a few months later on British B roads.

The factory alignment is not ideal for the car. Most here have at least neutralized toe out. I don't have a "before" for my LE so I cannot say how far it might have been from spec but it was not a treat to drive in its original configuration. The blocks tamed that considerably, although I acknowledge that they are just an alignment setting - nothing that could not be re-created with factory blocks, time and shims.

I would hardly consider the 4Cs tires to be "wide" though. Stock front P-zero in 205 is really more like 195 tread width - or the same as a Toyota Prius!!!
I track with the RE's in the sizes you mention, but also drive that 4C with stock size 17/18" P-zeros sometimes (bedding in brakes, or going to dealership for instance). I've also tried R888R, Trofeo R, and Indy 500 in the 215/245 size. That car is well aligned (to a track spec) on stock blocks, and there isn't much difference in steering response/twitchiness/tramlining between these tires. For sure, the car is sensitive to tire pressure, but on the road the comparison is using stock door card values. On track, I drop the pressures to compensate for high temperatures and optimize grip - there's really very little trade-off in terms of tramlining or bump steer as I do this but acknowledge that this is on a racetrack (albeit some pavement dates back well into the previous century!).

So although a good quality tire might solve tramlining, it's not the first direction that I would take. Once it's time to change tires, for sure, but if there's life left in the Pirellis and they are suitable for the driver, an alignment is the way to go. Doing that will only help when it comes time to change rubber.
 

·
Super Moderator
2015 4C Launch Edition
Joined
·
5,789 Posts
AND make sure that the COLD tire pressure is no more than the door card settings....29R/26F PSI. This needs to be adjusted as seasonal temperatures change. I recently tried an experiment where I raised the pressure 3 lbs. front and rear over the recommended settings. The car handled horribly and trammed like it had a mind of its own. I suspect that many people have too much air in their tires. Get a GOOD pressure gauge. If you have slightly larger tires than stock go about 1-2 PSI less front and rear.

After that...zero front toe and a good alinment is next. Finally if you get a bad "feel" from the rear end that replacement of the rubber bushings in the lower arm makes a huge difference in the feel of the car. Both AW and GWS have these. I still don't have the AW blocks ...I saw no reason to go with them with my other changes. My 2015 LE is great now. Note that power steering acts as a damper...we don't have power steering. Also low profile tires like ours have stiff side walls and that emphasizes tramming also.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top