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My personal opinion is that the exhaust system with 200 cell cat and resonator with center output is the best compromise for flow and ears. I heard this version and it sounds very nice. :) View attachment 103118
I wonder how my Missus would feel about having that under a glass topped coffee table in the lounge room.
 

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Discussion Starter #644
The onboard from the final round of Time Attack Italia - Imola with a lap time of 2:00.982. 3rd place in class SuperStreet.

That's it for season 2019 folks. Thank you all for your support, you're the best! ❤

3rd place TimeAttack Italia - SuperStreet - Imola 🏁

3rd place TimeAttack Italia - SuperStreet - Franciacorta 🏁

Raceland - Currently fastest street legal lap time 🏁
 

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Discussion Starter #646
Repost from this tread https://www.4c-forums.com/threads/autocross-and-lapping-videos-with-your-4c.37081/post-1038642 in case some of you have missed. I think it's worth the view. :D


Conslusion: The unwritten rule to keep you and other safe on the track is, that when you are passing other drivers, you always present yourself. You don't rush in their blind spot and then get surprised like here. The driver probably didn't see me and I was a bit overhyped. All good though...
 

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Discussion Starter #647
Here's the one, you'we all probably been waiting for.

Onboard battle between GMS tuned, street legal Alfa Romeo 4C and Scara73, track spec Alfa Romeo 4C. This are the first few laps on the Imola track, before going to the pit for tire temp adjustments, so the laps were about 2s off the race pace on both cars.

Our GMS Big brake kit works flawlessly and braking distances seem to be superior to the Scara73's 4C. GMS 3'' Modular exhaust works flawlessly as well and keeps the engine power stable, but we are a bit inferior on power and weight and completly inferior on downforce. This event we finished 0.7s behind Scara73's track spec 4C which is a decent result, but usually Scara73's 4C is still about 1-2s per lap faster.

Post your comments below and let us know which one would you choose? The street legal GMS 4C or fully track spec Scara73 4C? You can't go wrong either way.

 

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GMS all the way!!

Scara has the advantage of weight and spoiler, where you have the advantage of your big brake kit.
If we watch the small difference in speed you guys have, I tend to doubt the claimed extra power between the AlfaWorks' 280bhp tune and Scara's 320bhp 480Nm tune...
 

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Discussion Starter #649
I doubt the power too, but the aero can eat the top end big time, so the claimed numbers might be real after all. BTW, the GMS 3'' modular exhuast system is about to launch officialy and right after that we'll look into the possible TCT and ECU optimization to go along with it.
 

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What tires on scara 73?

In terms of acceleration I believe your car is quite similar to skara if not faster. If the distance in time was constant then you should be closer at low speeds and far away at high speeds but on the straight (min 0:35) it looks like he's pooling away initially, then the distance gets smaller (maybe I'm mistaking). His big wing adds some drag and our cars are quite low on power for big wings IMHO.

I see the speeds are quite high on this track so aero definitely gives confidence (for example in the turn at minute 2:25) --> With stock suspension and no aero in that corner I believe it would be quite an adventure to say the least. :). Your nitrons clearly helps.
 

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You know me ... I'll take one of each!

Wish that I had known about the BBK before I bought upgraded rotors and pads but you announced it about a week too late for me.
Definitely something that I need to think about, though.
And looking forward to more details about the exhaust.
Warranty is up on the track car sometime next year! :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #653
What tires on scara 73?

In terms of acceleration I believe your car is quite similar to skara if not faster. If the distance in time was constant then you should be closer at low speeds and far away at high speeds but on the straight (min 0:35) it looks like he's pooling away initially, then the distance gets smaller (maybe I'm mistaking). His big wing adds some drag and our cars are quite low on power for big wings IMHO.

I see the speeds are quite high on this track so aero definitely gives confidence (for example in the turn at minute 2:25) --> With stock suspension and no aero in that corner I believe it would be quite an adventure to say the list :). Your nitrons clearly helps.
Federal FZ201

I thnik Scara73 4C is more powerful and it is also about 100kg lighter so it out accelerates me on the corner exits, but at the top speed the aero drag takes its toll.

Yep, that corner is wicked. It is downhill right sweeper at 200kmh+ and then braking in to hard left turn. :poop: I love my Nitron suspension and I am very happy with our alignment and damping setup, although it took some time to sort it out. (y)

You know me ... I'll take one of each!

Wish that I had known about the BBK before I bought upgraded rotors and pads but you announced it about a week too late for me.
Definitely something that I need to think about, though.
And looking forward to more details about the exhaust.
Warranty is up on the track car sometime next year! :cool:
Sneaky answer. :LOL:

I understand, but we really don't want to rush with the release of the products until we are 100% satisfied. The brakes were quite challenging to set the blance, CNC the adapters and select the pads but in the end it was well worth it. It feels so good knowing that brakes are superior to the car. I can bake them all day long and they don't warp and vibrate even minimal. I'm very happy so far.

Exhaust is near, very near. Again, we want 100% satisfaction before relesing the product publicly. (y)
 

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So basically scara is considerably lighter (with all those CF parts) and only 0.7s faster on a 2 min track on identical tires (assuming that both drivers have the same "skill"). I doubt that the rear wing is adding much in terms of performance (it's adding some downforce but it also increases drag) - maybe the car would be the same or even faster without that big wing because our cars just don't have power.
I feel that both your cars are about as fast as they can be on these tires. 0.7s is not that much of a difference and for sure the difference in price / parts is huge. I wonder how your car would compare now with mine (which has OEM brakes and OEM suspension but same rear tires). Maybe we will find out on Hungaroring next year.

On another note, I looked at the times posted in other categories: FWD cars like honda type R (probably stage 1 or 2) are just 1s slower.
Street FWD - Honda type R - 2.01.89 (I assume on semislikcs ?)
Supercar - Porsche gt3 RS - 1.51.81 (I assume on semislikcs ?)
Superstreet - Scara 73 - 2.00.233
Superstreet - Rudi Gale - 2.00.982

IMHO, our cars (I'm refering to alfa 4c in general) are not that fast especially on a fast racetrack like Imola. We just don't have power and we will never have. We can make the car faster around corners. On slower tracks the gap between alfa and gt3 rs would be considerably reduced.
Installing a big turbo on our cars would yeld all sort of problems:
1) The gearbox would probably fail
2) Added weight from components (like the bigger turbo itself + bigger IC + bigger exhaust ... etc)
3) Race ecu not working like the OEM does
4) Even more lag
5) Traction
...
Just some thoughts :)
 

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Discussion Starter #655 (Edited)
100kg of a difference is a lot on a 1000kg car. I have seen the weight distributioniton of the Scara73 4C and due to all the carbonparts and weight reduction, the front end is too light in my opinion. Corner balance seemed off to me as well. I pay attention to keep the car balanced at all cost, so unless we reduce the weight at the rear I see no sense in making the front end even lighter or even worse, getting the cross weight off due to the weight reduction.

We also spent a lot of time selecting the brake compounds and brake discs dimension to get the desired brake bias. I'm not sure how Scara73's driver brakes, but we seem to be superior on the braking section, due to the brake setup or the driver or maybe both. However their car does seem to be more stable in the corners due to a better grip (aero) or better driving (driver skill). They also run LSD so they can get on throttle out of the corners faster which can be seen in the videos. If they have stronger engine at 275HP vs. 320HP which I believe they do, as I don't see a reason they would lie, they can afford the downforce and yet have the same top end. So, I do believe their car is more capable than ours and lap times prove that.

Imola and Mugello were tracks where powerful cars benefited a lot as you have few sections above 200km/h and uphill section. All the powerful turbo cars, Honda Type R was the newer turbo series (cca. 400hp), Golf 7 R REVO (cca. 450hp), Clio RS Turbo (cca. 300hp), Mitsubishi EVO (cca. 450 HP), Abarth 695 Biposto (cca. 380 HP) were fast in this two events, because they gained on the straights more than we did through the corners or braking. For example in Mugello the top speed of 488 Pista was about 280km/h, while 4C was about 230 km/h. The 488 passed me in the final corner and by the end of straight line I couldn't see it anymore. On the other hand there was Radical SR3 in Imola which ran same time as our 4C but what it gained in the corners and braking it lost on the straight. Lotus Elise with comparable midcorner grip and braking distances falls behind 4C big time on the straights. So yes, the seconds do get lost there.

Regarding the driving skills, it is hard to judge and it is a delicate discussion not to harm anyones feelings. I do use left foot braking to get seamless overlapping between braking and acceleration which yields about 0.5s per lap on our home track Grobnik. I am very critical towards my driving and I do always try to improve. I never have a feeling that I'm the best, because as soon as you let your ego jump in, you're doomed to stagnation. I know a lot of drivers winning cups for year and then falling asleep on the past success, following by ego issues and later having a really hard time coming back once they loose their throne. Usually they don't ever come back.

I have also noticed that there are a quite a few drivers that don't use heel and toe shifitng, left foot braking. Let's say they are not the best at the driving technique, yet their cars yield impressive lap times. Maybe they are even at the top because their cars are so superior. But with better driving, the potential surely is even higher. But in the racing world the seconds just don't go down as you would like and horsepower surely helps a lot, so most of people go berserk with power mods and they are fast, but because of the power not because of their car being sorted out or racing skills being complete. Imagine how fast could they trully be if they would have worked on every aspect of the racing. Mindpower, driving skills, car adjustments, power, weight etc.

I think we actually push our cars to the limit and try to squeeze the every last bit out of it. I always tend to sort out the suspension, damping, alignment, tire pressures, corner balance, brakes etc. to the details and once you are there, you can just add horspower and you'll be very fast compared to other cars with same power to weight ratio. But yes, it is tempting and far more easy to go for more powerful engine and slick tires, than nitpicking the details, but I do not know a single driver that had a car sorted out once they started playing with the engines. They usually just go for more and more power and better tires, but the car itself is nowhere near the potential it could achieve with more systematic approach. I don't want the same to happen to our 4C. We want to evolve hand in hand with the car and with the driving skills. We want to have as much track time as possible because yet again, spending all you budget on upgrades and not knowing your car, yourself or the track to the very details to be able drive at the limit is wasted potential. Taming a 400hp 900kg mid engined car is not a joke, especially if you want to drive it at the edge.

In the end I am competing with myself. I do like the challenge of racing against better cars and drivers because this way I improve far more than claiming the titles in the inferior groups. Getting a cup is surely nice, but only when I know I've earned it. Sometimes you get lucky, get the trophy but that doesn't mean anything to me. Getting 3rd, 5th or whatever place and knowing that you did your best and that the car performed at its best, that's what counts. And that's the philosophy we will continue to follow in the future. We want our cars, driver and setup detailed to the max. No shortcuts...

(y)
 

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@GMS - Well said Sir, well said!

I myself have focused on better handling car with my modifications as I have grown with knowledge/experience, but I have also foolishly spend $ on frivolous things too.:rolleyes: Live and learn, I guess.... I have had an ECU clone for nearly 2 years that has just been sitting in my garage never installed... Better driver first, Better car second... Power last... Has thankfully been advice that I heeded from my instructors...
 

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At this point, there is an opportunity to touch on something that is very disturbing to me at 4C .The design of front airflow for engine and AC cooling is completely missed so it is not a good idea to increase the downforce in the rear but in the front. There is too much lift in the front now, so I think that a concrete front modification is needed first. My thinking is shown in the attached pictures. What is your opinion?

Stock design:
103384

Modification option:
103385
 
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