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Discussion Starter #1
Ciao,

tomorrow on Friday (25.11.2016) we offer test rides as driver or co-driver on the Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours (prior arrangement is mandatory! Please contact me by email!).
We still test the most powerful 4C tuning worldwide. The weather become too bad in the North of Germany, so we decided to test in France. Our test driver took one of our 4C to Magny Cours because he is driving the 24h race of the Lamera Cup at this weekend.

This is what you can test in Magny Cours:


450 N m and 324 bhp maximum > up to around 5.600 rpm there is still 400 N m torque available! So a very impressive test drive for 4C owner.
BTW: The tuning and measurements are carried out on an European high end automotive industry standards dyno (which is very different to US measurements).

Regards
André
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you for your comment Eduard :)

As you know, the performance curve is the most important thing. It make no sense to have a torque peak with big numbers at around 3.000 rpm which you use only at the start in the first gear. This is what I saw on all those available charts. If you compare the charts serious, you see the big difference.
Who is able to deliver still 400 N m at 5.600 rpm in a serious and solid tune without becoming a black ass from all the petrol of cooling? ;)

By the different measurements methods and possible cheats on the dynos, we perfer to compare the laptimes or 100-200 km/h times.
Unfortunately you avoid to go on track together with us and other 4C in Zandvoort at Spettacolo Sportivo to compare our cars in live.

I suggest that we make an Alfa 4C tuner comparsion test in Europe of all interested tuners next year :)
We will be there and we are not afraid about all those "4xx bhp" and "5xx N m" tunes ;-P
I would say minimum 200 km track use to make sure that the mappings are not only made for a nice dyno sheet or a few fast laps. Full stress for the cars to make it authentic.

Can I count on you? We can invite all the other to find an appointment and place which is good for every tuner.
We also could arrange it for the Spettacolo Sportivo 2017, it is the biggest Alfa Romeo Event in Europe (the World?), maybe the day before.

And we can compare the suspension kits also with OE mapping at the same event :)
 

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Thank you for your comment Eduard :)

As you know, the performance curve is the most important thing. It make no sense to have a torque peak with big numbers at around 3.000 rpm which you use only at the start in the first gear. This is what I saw on all those available charts. If you compare the charts serious, you see the big difference.
Who is able to deliver still 400 N m at 5.600 rpm in a serious and solid tune without becoming a black ass from all the petrol of cooling? ;)

By the different measurements methods and possible cheats on the dynos, we perfer to compare the laptimes or 100-200 km/h times.
Unfortunately you avoid to go on track together with us and other 4C in Zandvoort at Spettacolo Sportivo to compare our cars in live.

I suggest that we make an Alfa 4C tuner comparsion test in Europe of all interested tuners next year :)
We will be there and we are not afraid about all those "4xx bhp" and "5xx N m" tunes ;-P
I would say minimum 200 km track use to make sure that the mappings are not only made for a nice dyno sheet or a few fast laps. Full stress for the cars to make it authentic.

Can I count on you? We can invite all the other to find an appointment and place which is good for every tuner.
We also could arrange it for the Spettacolo Sportivo 2017, it is the biggest Alfa Romeo Event in Europe (the World?), maybe the day before.

And we can compare the suspension kits also with OE mapping at the same event :)

Wow.... I avoided??? Funny. You can make up shit amazing. We are NOT race drivers, i am a software developer, your software was done by MXX..... I do NOT race, i have NO experience, but my company holds an official record from a car magazine and is still the officially fastest Alfa 4C as long someone is faster. I did not avoid anything and i want to compare tunes from tuners and not from sellers that put a worthless sticker on it. YOU have absolutely nothing to show that YOU developed anything ever. You bought a label to pretend the stuff from asia that you sell is worth something. I do my shit since 1997 and have no reason to lie to my clients - that is the difference. My overall torque is still stronger than yours and that sheet was from 2015 and you come up now with a (insults deleted by moderator). That is it.
 

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Take it easy guys
We are all in this together n enjoy the ride

Es gibt andere auf dem Forum, die verstehen und sprechen (und schreiben) Deutsch
Mein Deutsch ist nicht mehr gut, aber ich verstehe genug. Das ist hysterisch. Wenn dies in Englisch wäre, dann denke ich, dass die Moderatoren intervenieren würden. :laugh::laugh:
 

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Eduard has been banned, permanently.
I will clean up this thread of all insults and stupidity from him and everyone else.
My patience with this petulance is at an end. Anyone else wanting to be banned can continue the insults and get the same result.

Andre, sorry for this intrusion into your thread. Looking forward to reports on the event tomorrow. Thank you for your input, and continuing to support the 4C community with good information and product development.
 

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I don't speak Dutch, but I need a power (ECU) upgrade for my new 4C, so please, someone make a list of reputable tuners in USA where I can buy one.
I'm looking for 25-40HP increase.
Than you !
 

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I don't speak Dutch, but I need a power (ECU) upgrade for my new 4C, so please, someone make a list of reputable tuners in USA where I can buy one.
I'm looking for 25-40HP increase.
Than you !
Since this thread is in the Europe section, and more about one tuner/tune, it might not be the best place to continue your discussion.
But you can take a look through the Engine and Technical section of the forum for threads about tunes for cars in the USA, provided by these companies (in absolutely no particular order):

Euro+Compulsion
Madness Autoworks
Tork Motorsports
Pogea Racing (not sure if they now have any US representation, but do have a tune for the USA).

Not sure if Andre has a tune for the USA, so he can advise us here.
Am I forgetting anyone?
 

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The idea of a tuner shootout in Europe is great idea. I really hope it happens and is reported on here. Thank you for posting Andre....and praying the that Eduard's permanent ban is reconsidered. Surely a little editorial clout can be exercised and his posts deleted of expletives before publishing. I think it's important to hear about all advances tuners develop and this forum is a wonderful avenue of communication for this. I only wish Eduard could be somewhat more civil in his communication but I understand his passion. I remember seeing video of a 4C with his tune toasting a standard 4C on the track, so I don't understand the claim he doesn't race.
 

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The idea of a tuner shootout in Europe is great idea. I really hope it happens and is reported on here. Thank you for posting Andre....and praying the that Eduard's permanent ban is reconsidered. Surely a little editorial clout can be exercised and his posts deleted of expletives before publishing. I think it's important to hear about all advances tuners develop and this forum is a wonderful avenue of communication for this. I only wish Eduard could be somewhat more civil in his communication but I understand his passion.
In a way, I am truly sorry. We all lose when someone with that wealth of knowledge leaves the board.
But, in order to prevent others - regular and frequent contributors - with equal or better knowledge from heading to the exits like the last three times this has reared its ugly head, I've made the decision.
It is not up for debate.
My colleagues were ready to do this long ago.
I was the sole hold-out, as I was willing to spend the time editing and deleting comments in order to leave the meat and cut out the awful.
I'm no longer able to make that significant commitment of time and effort, on account of one member who cannot be civil and insists on bullying his way into anyone else's thread with insults and innuendo.

I should prune more of Eduard's comments, as I now know more of his accusations in this thread to be false. But I'll leave them for when time permits. I'm not the arbiter of all facts on the internet. Just responsible for passionate but polite discourse in this little corner of it. I'll leave it to people here to make up their own minds about the rest.

Enough about this discussion. It takes away from what looks like a pretty cool tune, and an interesting opportunity for those in the area.
 

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In a way, I am truly sorry. We all lose when someone with that wealth of knowledge leaves the board.
But, in order to prevent others - regular and frequent contributors - with equal or better knowledge from heading to the exits like the last three times this has reared its ugly head, I've made the decision.
It is not up for debate.
My colleagues were ready to do this long ago.
I was the sole hold-out, as I was willing to spend the time editing and deleting comments in order to leave the meat and cut out the awful.
I'm no longer able to make that significant commitment of time and effort, on account of one member who cannot be civil and insists on bullying his way into anyone else's thread with insults and innuendo.

I should prune more of Eduard's comments, as I now know more of his accusations in this thread to be false. But I'll leave them for when time permits. I'm not the arbiter of all facts on the internet. Just responsible for passionate but polite discourse in this little corner of it. I'll leave it to people here to make up their own minds about the rest.

Enough about this discussion. It takes away from what looks like a pretty cool tune, and an interesting opportunity for those in the area.
Fair enough.
 

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You sure are a sensitive bunch of girls.
Can't anyone have an opinion other than the moderator's?

It seems if Eduard doesn't agree with you guys, you ban him. The EC thread was nothing but favoritism and you and I had a personal message about that.

I just spent three days with Eduard while he was out at the LA Auto show. I can tell you first hand, that Eduard is a very respectful and very friendly person.
My girlfriends is usually very critical of people, she found Eduard very sweet and fun. I think most of the miscommunication with his comments are embedded in the language barrier. If you really know Eduard, you'll know he loves his craft and perfection. He has a big passion for 50-60's American pick ups and loves more than anything, his family.

His knowledge of the 4C is incredible and his knowledge on most cars is quite impressive. His tunes, which are quite amazing are a minuscule amount of his actual business. He is way more than just tunes. He builds custom vehicles, that are simply amazing. If you get some time, look up the Pogea Corvette.

As for Andre,
He hasn't really showed any real conclusive info. That is not any dyno sheet graph I've seen before. Usually the dyno companies logo is on there somewhere. The guys at Torx seemed to be able to. So why can't Andrea and Eduard have a debate with one another? That's what the thread is for. No one said his product was poor or didn't achieve his claimed numbers.

As for track driving, if your not a driver, your not going to take a challenge from one. That's like taking a challenge from a boxer for a fight, when you have no experience. Eduard barely fits in my 4C, it can't be all that comfortable for him. That's why he drives a Quadrifoglio.

If Andre is getting those numbers, congrats. That is really damn impressive and more than likely would have the most powerful car. But usually you show proof first, than make a claim to such.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
@4Canada
unfortunately you have not deleted the denouncing lie from Eduard. This is what he did often in the past. It is not my nature to answer on this level but the more often such lies will be posted the chance that some will believe such things is higher.

I really have no problem with technical or performance discussion but I really have problems with a lie like this:
You bought a label to pretend the stuff from asia that you sell is worth something.
To make it clear:
We do not sell stuff from asia. All our suppliers come from Europe and USA and usually they produce in Europe or USA. Our main suppliers come from Italy and Germany and I know their prodution in Italy and Germany. Of course it would be very innocent to believe that some parts are not made in cheaper production countries. For example the valves for exhausts: If you buy them from the well known Germany company Pierburg, they are not made in Germany (anymore). Same with RC-controler of valves...
BTW: Products from Asia (BTW: Japan is also Asia) can have a very good quality, it is very arrogant and away-with-the-fairies to think that asian companies produce only bad quality!

But the blast is that Pogea use(d?) titanium silencers who look identically to standard silencers which are available on alibaba (big chinese selling website).
[irony modus ON]Of course a factory from China copied the design from a small "unknown" workshop/tuner in South Germany who weld every silencer by his own hand and have in addtion the time to post so much online. And of course each controller board for the valve will be soldered by hand from the staff.[irony modus OFF]

I remember a thread that Eduard wrote that his KW V2 suspension kit has a special and better setup from KW than KW itself. This was also a lie, KW never produce a regular KW suspension kit with a different/better setup. To get such a modification you need a "private label" which means that a tuner sell this kit under his own name.
And the best: Without the skill and experience of a good race driver, how should it be possible to make a "better" setup than the developers from KW?
Do you realize your contradiction Eduard? Without the skill of a race driver, it is impossible to make a good setup for road or track.

It is not a secret that we work with the best suppliers, developers and engineers. We are not so stupid and arrogant to think that we can make it better than the specialists who have studied their special fields. The challenge is to find the best ones and that the quality of their work and/or the final products have a perfect quality.
And yes, also the new 4C mapping was made in cooperation with a very special developer from a ancillary supplier of the automotive industry which has actual maybe slightly trouble with the EPA ;) And the result is the best stable mapping you can get for the 4C without extensive hardware modifications, for sure! :x
For those who are looking primary for big numbers and do not stress the 4C too much, we have not the best mapping.

I remember seeing video of a 4C with his tune toasting a standard 4C on the track, so I don't understand the claim he doesn't race.
It is not necessary to be a race driver for a comparison. The driver skill is very important! To make a real comparison of the cars, one (independent) good driver is needed who test all cars to get a real result.
But it is also very important to drive the cars hard for a longer session than only a few laps. It is not really a problem to make a mapping with a fantastic performance for a short time or dyno. A longer race session on track under full stress and load will sort the wheat from the chaff.
The competition events could be:
- Acceleration from e.g. 100-200, 60-140 km/h etc.
- Laptimes on track

If the tuners are not interested maybe the customers of the tuners? ;)


Back to topic:
We have had a very good testing day in Magny Cours, unfortunately we have had wet conditions so the laptimes are not really comparable.
We will publish the video soon :)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
But usually you show proof first, than make a claim to such.
I started the thread with an invitation for a test drive in Magny Cours for those who are interested. Not more not less!
BTW: We offer this all the time at our track days and of course also on request on track and road.

A comparison of two cars must not be done by the owners. My idea was not a race challenge between Eduard and me, the idea was to compare the cars in general.
 

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What happened here?

Competition makes for the best products, but belittling people and the back and forth is how people get divided and things fall apart.

People will have their preferences, one person may prefer a tune even if it doesn't make the most power out of all of them. Personal preference can not be argued.

Side note, What dyno was used Andre, I am not familiar with that layout. Good numbers definitely, still working on the conversions from PS/NM to HP/TQ. Are these Wheel numbers, or crank numbers?

Tyson
 

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I remember seeing video of a 4C with his tune toasting a standard 4C on the track, so I don't understand the claim he doesn't race.
If you are talking about this video
http://4c-forums.com/16-engine-technical/19209-everybody-must-get-cloned-2.html#post349121

I was the driver, not Eduard. And it was my car with the Pogea Stage 1.

Here is another video at Spa last October. Car with the Pogea Stage 1plus.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByicCXStwgORM20waGZXVEFHS1k/view?usp=sharing

It was after a yellow flag so the driving skills have no influence here. Both cars full throttle at the same time, that's it. We were 2 in my car, only one person in the other 4C...
 
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