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I am very shocked he let it go for such a low number. I don't understand why anyone would do that on a brand new car - that is rare! Makes me wonder if they just needed some cash flow this month otherwise zero sense. I thought it would go over sticker price because that's what its worth!!!!!!
I am similarly shocked. PCarmarket actually deleted my comment, lol. I think them saying that the platform worked in this instance is incorrect. It clearly didn't for this to sell so much below market.
 

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I am similarly shocked. PCarmarket actually deleted my comment, lol. I think them saying that the platform worked in this instance is incorrect. It clearly didn't for this to sell so much below market.
Clearly they dont care since its just another "car" to them. I'd be willing to bet they would like to think people perceive their site as a place to come when you want a deal vs Bat - so great for the buyer and horrible for the seller.
 

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I am similarly shocked. PCarmarket actually deleted my comment, lol. I think them saying that the platform worked in this instance is incorrect. It clearly didn't for this to sell so much below market.

Damn I wanted to leave a comment on P car and they closed comments on the auction. Something else that BaT doesn't do. Funny they over manage the comment section where as BaT allows members to attack and insult each other with zero accountability. I just had my first comment being attacked because I misspelled the color Carrara White as Carrera White on a 911. I learned that day that I am a scumbag noob for making this horrible error!
 

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It did not sell below "market" if it was fairly open to the entire marketplace and sold for X price.....guess what: THAT just became the market. Just because some people here want something to sell for more or "think" it should sell for more doesn't mean that it will. Hopefully we all are 4C enthusiasts FIRST and not market speculators...who cares one bit what they sell for...we know what these cars are...that's why we bought them.....to enjoy (hopefully) every day (or as much as possible) not to park them in the garage and keep our fingers crossed for a quick opportunistic flip, all the while criticizing if a given 4C in the marketplace didn't get $5k or $10k more. Drive, enjoy...rinse and repeat....market goes up...market goes down....yawn.
 

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It did not sell below "market" if it was fairly open to the entire marketplace and sold for X price.....guess what: THAT just became the market. Just because some people here want something to sell for more or "think" it should sell for more doesn't mean that it will. Hopefully we all are 4C enthusiasts FIRST and not market speculators...who cares one bit what they sell for...we know what these cars are...that's why we bought them.....to enjoy (hopefully) every day (or as much as possible) not to park them in the garage and keep our fingers crossed for a quick opportunistic flip, all the while criticizing if a given 4C in the marketplace didn't get $5k or $10k more. Drive, enjoy...rinse and repeat....market goes up...market goes down....yawn.
Well we are all entitled to our own opinions it seems we completely disagree on this subject. I dont know anything about you, your car or when you bought it but I know my research has been done in the last 12 months when new 4C Spiders were nearly non existent and the majority of dealers I spoke with were asking $5K -15K over sticker for their last remaining 4C's on the lot and they were not negotiating at all. Right now I doubt there are very many new 4C's left on lots in the USA and if there are its got to be single digits. .

PCM is not the entire marketplace and clearly this car got very little exposure or interaction so I think its very myopic to assume $73K is the "real'" market value on a new 4C Spider when so few bidders were involved on PCM which must have 1/10 the viewers that BaT does or even Ebay Motors for that matter. I have been in Car Collecting 30+ years and never heard of PCM until last year.

And yes I do care very much what CMV is on my cars and it has absolutely NOTHING with your suggestion or market speculation. Have you ever had a collector car stolen? Worse yet have you ever been hit in your collector car and your car gets totaled? Do you know what information the insurance companies use to assess the CMV of your collector car? The most recent sales history of that vehicle with similar condition and mileage and with only 99 4C Spiders sold in USA what at minimum should have been an $85K - $90K sale has been driven down to $73K. God forbid something happens to my 4C but I sure as hell do not want to be put in the position of fighting with a claims adjuster why they are trying to pay me $73K for my $90K car!

That's it! I gave my opinion as did you and I have no interest in arguing about this with you.
 

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Well we are all entitled to our own opinions it seems we completely disagree on this subject. I dont know anything about you, your car or when you bought it but I know my research has been done in the last 12 months when new 4C Spiders were nearly non existent and the majority of dealers I spoke with were asking $5K -15K over sticker for their last remaining 4C's on the lot and they were not negotiating at all. Right now I doubt there are very many new 4C's left on lots in the USA and if there are its got to be single digits. .

PCM is not the entire marketplace and clearly this car got very little exposure or interaction so I think its very myopic to assume $73K is the "real'" market value on a new 4C Spider when so few bidders were involved on PCM which must have 1/10 the viewers that BaT does or even Ebay Motors for that matter. I have been in Car Collecting 30+ years and never heard of PCM until last year.

And yes I do care very much what CMV is on my cars and it has absolutely NOTHING with your suggestion or market speculation. Have you ever had a collector car stolen? Worse yet have you ever been hit in your collector car and your car gets totaled? Do you know what information the insurance companies use to assess the CMV of your collector car? The most recent sales history of that vehicle with similar condition and mileage and with only 99 4C Spiders sold in USA what at minimum should have been an $85K - $90K sale has been driven down to $73K. God forbid something happens to my 4C but I sure as hell do not want to be put in the position of fighting with a claims adjuster why they are trying to pay me $73K for my $90K car!

That's it! I gave my opinion as did you and I have no interest in arguing about this with you.

Well said.

I’ll send you the thing for your car in the morning btw. 👍🏻
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 · (Edited)
Well we are all entitled to our own opinions it seems we completely disagree on this subject. I dont know anything about you, your car or when you bought it but I know my research has been done in the last 12 months when new 4C Spiders were nearly non existent and the majority of dealers I spoke with were asking $5K -15K over sticker for their last remaining 4C's on the lot and they were not negotiating at all. Right now I doubt there are very many new 4C's left on lots in the USA and if there are its got to be single digits. .

PCM is not the entire marketplace and clearly this car got very little exposure or interaction so I think its very myopic to assume $73K is the "real'" market value on a new 4C Spider when so few bidders were involved on PCM which must have 1/10 the viewers that BaT does or even Ebay Motors for that matter. I have been in Car Collecting 30+ years and never heard of PCM until last year.

And yes I do care very much what CMV is on my cars and it has absolutely NOTHING with your suggestion or market speculation. Have you ever had a collector car stolen? Worse yet have you ever been hit in your collector car and your car gets totaled? Do you know what information the insurance companies use to assess the CMV of your collector car? The most recent sales history of that vehicle with similar condition and mileage and with only 99 4C Spiders sold in USA what at minimum should have been an $85K - $90K sale has been driven down to $73K. God forbid something happens to my 4C but I sure as hell do not want to be put in the position of fighting with a claims adjuster why they are trying to pay me $73K for my $90K car!

That's it! I gave my opinion as did you and I have no interest in arguing about this with you.
Good points!
 

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Updated Mannheim #s just to illuminate how terrible that PCarmarket sale was (a 2020 with 5k miles sold above MSRP at a dealer auction the same day as the Pcarmarket debacle)

These are the latest 4C Mannheim sales (wholesale dealer auction)

8/18 - 2016 Spider w/22k sold $53.25k
9/29 - 2018 Spider w/6k sold $69k
10/8 - 2020 Spider w/650 miles sold for $78.75k (MSRP $81,545)
11/19 - 2020 Spider w/5k miles sold for $78.25k (MSRP $74,945)


so yeah @4Cguy should probably think before someone saying that was “market”. Like I’m glad you enjoy your car (I do too!) but leave the market discussion to people who know what they’re talking about…
 

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I don’t think we’re all speaking the same language. $73,000USD is about $100,000AUD (little Aussie battlers) and $78,000USD is around $109,000AUD. Variations of 10 or 20 grand are irrelevant. You can start talking to me when prices improve by a factor of 10. Even then I doubt I’d sell….I was offered a ridiculous price for my Sud. It’s still in my garage. Some things are worth more than money.
 

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I don’t think we’re all speaking the same language. $73,000USD is about $100,000AUD (little Aussie battlers) and $78,000USD is around $109,000AUD. Variations of 10 or 20 grand are irrelevant. You can start talking to me when prices improve by a factor of 10. Even then I doubt I’d sell….I was offered a ridiculous price for my Sud. It’s still in my garage. Some things are worth more than money.
You’re not quite comparing apples to apples. The numbers I posted are Mannheim (dealer wholesale here in US). The same 78k (wholesale) 5k mile car is now listed by a dealer for 90k. The Pcarmarket car was untitled and much nicer (sticker 10k higher)

The only new 2020 left in the US is at Naples Motorsport for 110k.

100% agree that some things are worth more than money. Doesn’t really matter to me personally because I’m not selling anything.

My principle Interest is posting this publicly so when I get the inevitable flood of PMs asking me to “help me find a deal like that” I can simply point them here 😂
 

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You’re not quite comparing apples to apples. The numbers I posted are Mannheim (dealer wholesale here in US). The same 78k (wholesale) 5k mile car is now listed by a dealer for 90k. The Pcarmarket car was untitled and much nicer (sticker 10k higher)

The only new 2020 left in the US is at Naples Motorsport for 110k.

100% agree that some things are worth more than money. Doesn’t really matter to me personally because I’m not selling anything.

My principle Interest is posting this publicly so when I get the inevitable flood of PMs asking me to “help me find a deal like that” I can simply point them here 😂
It’s a great service you offer , John. I still ask myself where were these buyers when Alfa needed them?
 

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Still don't understand why some object to the PC market car being sold at market price? It was advertised for several days on the Internet for everyone to see. The selling dealer (who used to run the local Alfa Romeo dealership, therefore an experienced seller) set a reserve on the auction, and the auction met reserve at 73k. Certainly seems to fit the definition of "market price" to me (see above) ⬆

Maybe that day the market was down maybe tomorrow it will be higher. Markets fluctuate with market forces....it's a shame that so much energy has to be devoted to talk of $$$, better just to enjoy our amazing cars--- who knows: when all this government injected stimulus dries up and clears through the system we may all end up with cars worth half what they are now...wouldn't be ideal but at least the speculators would be weeded out!
 

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This whole conversation re: market price reminds me of my neighborhood. I live in a small gated neighborhood with 25 homes. Everyone knows everyone. Whenever someone puts their home up for sale .... EVERYONE knows about it and knows the asking price. Of course everyone wants high asking prices. One neighbor went through a messy divorce and ultimately sold the house for less than market value. Everyone was pissed at the low comp in our exclusive neighborhood. Of course with time and newer, better sale's comps in our neighborhood .... values are back where they should be.

Homes and cars are different. Yes. You should enjoy cars 1st and consider them an investment 2nd. But with such a small community of 4C owners .... of course .... we all want the best values for our cars.

The high prices for the 4Cs is partial validation for us original owners. But in the end .... I just drive and enjoy the car.
 

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Updated Mannheim #s just to illuminate how terrible that PCarmarket sale was (a 2020 with 5k miles sold above MSRP at a dealer auction the same day as the Pcarmarket debacle)

These are the latest 4C Mannheim sales (wholesale dealer auction)

8/18 - 2016 Spider w/22k sold $53.25k
9/29 - 2018 Spider w/6k sold $69k
10/8 - 2020 Spider w/650 miles sold for $78.75k (MSRP $81,545)
11/19 - 2020 Spider w/5k miles sold for $78.25k (MSRP $74,945)


so yeah @4Cguy should probably think before someone saying that was “market”. Like I’m glad you enjoy your car (I do too!) but leave the market discussion to people who know what they’re talking about…

Where do you access this kind of data? I've wanted to build my own dataset of prices to look at when new car depreciation tails off to try to understand and identify the next "classics"
I have a theory that about the ten year mark is when things start to stabilize and then ultimately move up
 
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