Alfa Romeo 4C manual transmission
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It isn't an auto.with a torque converter. It's a dual-clutch (like VW/Audi's DSG gearbox). It's the only type of gearbox you can order on a Ferrari 458 or Porsche GT3 now...and they are as "sports-car" as you can get.GVP said:
Yeah...I'd really rather it had 3 pedals too, but it's (sadly) the way the world is going. I cannot see Alfa engineering another gearbox for the 4C.
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The interior packaging means that it would not be trivial for Alfa Romeo to offer a manual transmission. The portion of the central console dedicated to the TCT controls would not be a suitable placement for a manual gearbox. Any lever would conflict with the air-con controls.
Therefore, I think it is near-certain that Alfa Romeo will never offer a manual transmission, unless the center console is redesigned at the facelift point.
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Therefore, I think it is near-certain that Alfa Romeo will never offer a manual transmission, unless the center console is redesigned at the facelift point.
It's not interior packaging that will nix a manual gearbox - Rearranging the center console would be the least of the engineering issues.
1. Euro emission laws heavily favour transmissions with an "auto mode" (which is the key reason why the euros are racing towards this style of gearbox)
2. Paddles don't have mechanical linkage to the gearbox....but a manual gearshifter would need a mechanical linkage which is would be difficult to engineer and expensive to engineer.
3. DCT gearboxes shift much faster than a human with a clutch pedal and gearshifter. Much faster. A 3-pedal manual would invariably be slower 0-100 than a DCT. (0-100 times mean nothing to me, but they seem to to most folks)
4. Alfa don't need to do it. They don't need to go the the cost and trouble of engineering another gearbox. I seriously doubt that the 4C will be any less "sold out" for having DCT only.
If I had the choice, I'd take a 3-pedal all day long. But it's never going to happen on the 4C
1. Euro emission laws heavily favour transmissions with an "auto mode" (which is the key reason why the euros are racing towards this style of gearbox)
2. Paddles don't have mechanical linkage to the gearbox....but a manual gearshifter would need a mechanical linkage which is would be difficult to engineer and expensive to engineer.
3. DCT gearboxes shift much faster than a human with a clutch pedal and gearshifter. Much faster. A 3-pedal manual would invariably be slower 0-100 than a DCT. (0-100 times mean nothing to me, but they seem to to most folks)
4. Alfa don't need to do it. They don't need to go the the cost and trouble of engineering another gearbox. I seriously doubt that the 4C will be any less "sold out" for having DCT only.
If I had the choice, I'd take a 3-pedal all day long. But it's never going to happen on the 4C
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Excellent points RBH58.
If Alfa Romeo deemed conventional headlights too expensive to amortize, a feature that would have benefited every unit, then I am inclined to believe that two separate center console designs and the necessary engineering involved would also be too expensive, although that is speculation. The cost of such work is higher than one might expect.
This is a car where even all non-U.S. cars will feature U.S.-spec bumper reflectors, all for the sake of unit standardization.
My take is that Alfa Romeo particularly prioritized unit standardization in order to make the 4C project feasible under a very limited budget. I have insight into logistics work and you might be surprised how quickly costs snowball when variations of a product are offered.
This one would be particularly expensive to surmount.RBH58 said:
Cost would be the primary obstacle.RBH58 said:
If Alfa Romeo deemed conventional headlights too expensive to amortize, a feature that would have benefited every unit, then I am inclined to believe that two separate center console designs and the necessary engineering involved would also be too expensive, although that is speculation. The cost of such work is higher than one might expect.
This is a car where even all non-U.S. cars will feature U.S.-spec bumper reflectors, all for the sake of unit standardization.
My take is that Alfa Romeo particularly prioritized unit standardization in order to make the 4C project feasible under a very limited budget. I have insight into logistics work and you might be surprised how quickly costs snowball when variations of a product are offered.
Why would you rather have a manual transmission over one of the world's fastest shifting transmissions in a production car?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_time
Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms[2]
BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 250 ms[2]
BMW M5 E60 with SMG III: 250 ms[2]
Ferrari 575M: 220 ms
Audi TT Quattro 3.2 (Direct Shift): 200 ms[3]
Lexus LFA: 200 ms
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale & Ferrari F430: 150 ms[2]
Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms[2]
Ferrari FXX: Under 100 ms[4]
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG: 100 ms[2]
Nissan GT-R R35: 100 ms
BMW M3 E92 with M-DCT: 80 ms[2]
Ferrari 430 Scuderia & FXX Evoluzione: 60 ms[2]
Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms[2]
Alfa Romeo Mito & Alfa Romeo Giulietta (2010) Dual Dry Clutch Transmission TCT: 8 ms[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_time
Aston Martin Vanquish: 250 ms[2]
BMW M3 E36 with SMG I: 250 ms[2]
BMW M5 E60 with SMG III: 250 ms[2]
Ferrari 575M: 220 ms
Audi TT Quattro 3.2 (Direct Shift): 200 ms[3]
Lexus LFA: 200 ms
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale & Ferrari F430: 150 ms[2]
Enzo Ferrari: 150 ms[2]
Ferrari FXX: Under 100 ms[4]
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG: 100 ms[2]
Nissan GT-R R35: 100 ms
BMW M3 E92 with M-DCT: 80 ms[2]
Ferrari 430 Scuderia & FXX Evoluzione: 60 ms[2]
Bugatti Veyron (Direct Shift): 8 ms[2]
Alfa Romeo Mito & Alfa Romeo Giulietta (2010) Dual Dry Clutch Transmission TCT: 8 ms[5]
DrG...the answer to your hypothetical question (from my perspective) is actually "Yes". I would still take a 3-pedal over flappy-paddles were it an option.DrG said:
The idea of an Alfa having this sort of tech in it should scare the bejesus out of any rational person (I've owned an Alfa before). Whether it did 0-100 in 4.5 or 5 is of little consequence to me because I doubt I'd be attempting either. Full-bore standing start launches are car-abuse and this car isn't meant for the drag strip. What matters to me are more "real-world" measures like 80-120kph times...where I doubt the DCT would be any quicker than a proper manual.
However, I accept that a proper manual isn't going to happen on this car and I'm okay with that. As soon as the warranty runs out I'll be dumping it before it costs me a fortune though!
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But you can control the shifts in 'manual' mode by using the paddles on the steering wheel.
I would not call that "manual", I too like to do a nice heel and toe downshift when I'm out in the weekend, driving 7/10.
On the track I very much prefer a good paddle shift, I'm busy enough anyway trying to be fast!
You should go drive some dual clutch trans cars. I felt the same way and ordered my 991S as a manual. I then had the opportunity to spend considerable track time in a PDK 991S and a 7 speed MT on the same track. I also drove the Cayman S PDK at the same track. I was blown away by the PDK's (similar tech to the 4C trans). I now find myself researching the sale of my 7 speed to replace it with a PDK.
The point is they are amazing and as fun to drive as a 7 speed imo.
The point is they are amazing and as fun to drive as a 7 speed imo.
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Same thought here. I was totally against the semi's and find myself being totally for now due to the 4C.
Driving my other cars my fingers dab the air in search of flippers before realising I have to do the dumb stick thing again.
It's one of those things that are better decided on after having tried out the two.
Driving my other cars my fingers dab the air in search of flippers before realising I have to do the dumb stick thing again.
It's one of those things that are better decided on after having tried out the two.
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You'll even have a hard time finding a 2015 Porsche with a 3-pedal manual - at least here you do. Might be available as a special order, but no longer stocked!
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Racing drivers aside, I think petrol heads fall into two categories, Purists and Enthusiasts. The Purists tend to have well developed left legs, and the Enthusiasts, calluses on their fingers... I don't think either can consider themselves better than the other - it's about a passion for cars. I myself have up until now turned down all cars that are not manuals for my personal use, despite them being few and far between here (exept Mustangs, Opel OPC's, GTI's, Focus ST's, BRZ's and Caymans).
But in the 4C I have no choice. the Purist in me asks for a gear lever, but the Enthusiast is thrilled - and I cannot imagine that I'll enjoy the car any less because it's not manual.
But in the 4C I have no choice. the Purist in me asks for a gear lever, but the Enthusiast is thrilled - and I cannot imagine that I'll enjoy the car any less because it's not manual.
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I'm a die-hard toe & heal, stick guy. Love it, love it, love it. It's all about control and mastering a skill that only a small percentage of drivers can. But, the high-tech paddle shifter in an F1 car coupled with all that power and suspension geometry, oh my, I'm like a kid looking through the window of a candy store.
And now comes the 4C. No, it's not an F1 car. Paddle shifters, sound, power, carbon fiber, affordability, suspension geometry. . . .
A bit downsized as compared to an F1, but if I did own a true F1, I can't drive it on the streets. Can't take my honey out on a date in it. The 4C is the current, or future technology. It's history in the making. Did I mention affordable?
Kind of got off point. I'm looking forward to the 4C and have no qualms about it. No desire to change it. That may change after I get to know the Unicorn, but until then my only complaint is, "It's taking to long to get here."
And now comes the 4C. No, it's not an F1 car. Paddle shifters, sound, power, carbon fiber, affordability, suspension geometry. . . .
A bit downsized as compared to an F1, but if I did own a true F1, I can't drive it on the streets. Can't take my honey out on a date in it. The 4C is the current, or future technology. It's history in the making. Did I mention affordable?
Kind of got off point. I'm looking forward to the 4C and have no qualms about it. No desire to change it. That may change after I get to know the Unicorn, but until then my only complaint is, "It's taking to long to get here."
I'm still disappointed there's no manual... I've only driven DSGs in the Golf R, Audi TTS, GTI and current S3 and there is no drama. The seamless shifts mean you don't lurch back and forth in your seat upon changes. There's no turbo lag so the acceleration isn't broken up between shifts. And that farting sound! I'm sorry its just shit.
I hope the rest of the 4C is exciting enough to make me forget about it. I've heard it is...
I hope the rest of the 4C is exciting enough to make me forget about it. I've heard it is...
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The shifts are not seamless. Somehow they have engineered the car so you DO actually get the excitement of 'feeling' the shifts.
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