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I'll appreciate the electric ambulance or hearse to whisk me away swiftly and quietly in about 30 years! lmao

:grin2:
ONCE AGAIN :grin2::grin2::grin2::grin2::grin2:
oh.....and stick around for a bit longer than that....besides, in 30 years it will be easier for you to row your way through the gears in a 4C than a gated car hahahaaaaa
 

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EU upcoming strict emissions laws are forcing electric cars on us already.
Seems every car manufacturer that is not already well-versed in electric car tech is sucking up to someone who is.
Maserati-Ferrari
FCA-Renault
Apple-Tesla

Yeah look for the big manufacturers of phones to be deep involved in building cars soon with some of them self driving.
And of hearing conversations like this:
“The Google Waymo car has more styling than the Apple Car.” and “the Huawei car is cheap to buy but just butt ugly... and I think it eavesdrops on my conversations!” :(
Have a look at the current Euro range of Giuliettas. No 1750 and no 170hp or 150hp Multiairs due to emissions and me believing the hype that Multiairs we’re going to be the saviour. All that seems to be left in petrols is the 120hp model. Diesels are being outlawed in cities, which doesn’t leave much else to market. Electrification is coming fast.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
It is worth noting that the electric-car boom worldwide (including China) has so far been built on government subsidies.

Free money.

When those subsidies dry up, electric sales collapse overnight, often by 50-90%. See Denmark, Hong Kong, UK and Georgia (US) for examples. Tesla's shareprice is collapsing because US-wide subsidies are shrinking.

Without free subsidies, consumers don't seem all that excited by electric cars. Underlying demand is not as strong as everyone thinks.
 

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Don't frown on electric.
I have high hopes for it.
Probably not in the current (pun not really intended, but I'll let it ride) heavy-battery platforms we see now, but some future evolution or perhaps fuel cell.
No noise, and no shifting, but if you can get decent range and quick refills from a lighter weight power supply, and a performing chassis, then the future isn't all doom and gloom.
The acceleration is pretty astounding. Driving dynamics are driving dynamics regardless of powerplant.
If it lets people experience the joy of really driving, well into the middle of the century, then I'm all for it. I won't be around anymore (probably a petrol ambulance / hearse for me), but good for the next generations.

It would be nice if a car company did that right. Not sure it's going to be Tesla, though. Would love for Alfa Romeo to jump the shark and surprise everyone with just such a vehicle.
But until battery weight/bulk and range are truly conquered, it's just a pipe dream.

Looking at Formula E, there's a start in the right direction. Still a long way to go, mind you.
 

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It is worth noting that the electric-car boom worldwide (including China) has so far been built on government subsidies.

Free money.

When those subsidies dry up, electric sales collapse overnight, often by 50-90%. See Denmark, Hong Kong, UK and Georgia (US) for examples. Tesla's shareprice is collapsing because US-wide subsidies are shrinking.

Without free subsidies, consumers don't seem all that excited by electric cars. Underlying demand is not as strong as everyone thinks.
Every part of the car industry presently thrives on subsidy.
You think a new Toyota plant locates where it does because they like the scenery? If you believe the bit about "skilled labour force and close to transportation routes", I have some land in Florida that you'll be interested in. Car makers are catered to had and foot by municipal, state, and federal governments because they bring photo opportunities and jobs.

Subsidies that make electric cars more attractive are coming to an end. Phase 2 of the do-gooder's push to eliminate tailpipe emissions is almost upon us - it's regulation. So get your subsidized electrics while you can because tomorrow you'll be paying full price and be forced to buy them!
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Every part of the car industry presently thrives on subsidy.
You think a new Toyota plant locates where it does because they like the scenery? If you believe the bit about "skilled labour force and close to transportation routes", I have some land in Florida that you'll be interested in. Car makers are catered to had and foot by municipal, state, and federal governments because they bring photo opportunities and jobs.

Subsidies that make electric cars more attractive are coming to an end. Phase 2 of the do-gooder's push to eliminate tailpipe emissions is almost upon us - it's regulation. So get your subsidized electrics while you can because tomorrow you'll be paying full price and be forced to buy them!

Supply-side subsidies (for factories) are different to demand-side subsidies (at retailers).

One subsidy is hidden, while the other is visible and much more demand-sensitive.

Denmark recently cut consumer subsidies (demand) and electric sales slumped roughly -70% in weeks.

Yeah, no question, Western countries are trying to regulate diesel and petrol vehicles to extinction. Their strategy makes sense (even if petrolheads don't like it) -- governments want to push deadly emissions away from cities and towns.
 

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EU upcoming strict emissions laws are forcing electric cars on us already.:(
If the headlines are to be believed, you’re correct. That said, a little digging reveals lots of hyperbole and political doublespeak. The “deadlines” are by no means etched in stone and even the most ambitious scenarios are likely to be unmet and pushed back as the realities of the undertaking spoil many of the well intentioned plans.
There isn’t any scenario in which the EU stops producing greenhouse gas emissions before mid-century. The most ambitious lower emissions to “net-zero” which involves using emissions abatement strategies like planting forests to act as carbon sinks and other carbon capture technologies.
Also, when you say “electric cars” do you mean battery electric vehicles? Those will take even longer to come online and most of the vehicles produced will be hybrid and plug in hybrid models.
In short, it’ll eventually happen, but a good number of those on this board (myself included) will be enjoying the dirt nap when it does.
 

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I worked for 36 years in the Gas and Electric industry.....the big lie is Zero emissions. While there is a movement away from population centers via remote power plants, emissions will still be generated unless we eliminate coal and natural gas, fueled plants. And while you can generate power with hydro electric people don't like that due to environmental impact. Of course there is always nuclear....oh wait....there is a problem with that. That currently leaves us with solar and wind power...neither is capable of generating more than a tiny amount of energy that will be needed. Don't forget that all of the existing power plants are needed for everything else than recharging batteries....to meet the demand of electric vehicles will require a huge increase in the generation capability of a nation....PLUS all the infrastructure (wires, towers) to get that power to the recharging stations.

The answer to future power needs will be in a mixture of many generation sources....some which haven't aren't invented yet. For the immediate future and probably for many decades we will have to rely on a combination of types of vehicles....internal combustion, hybrid, pure electric, hydrogen fuel cell, etc. In addition the internal combustion engine is constantly getting more efficient. I remember when cars were getting around 12 mpg in the 50s and 60s and that was considered efficient. Look what cars are getting today in comparison and with better performance.

Governments can mandate change but the markets with public buying habits and taste are a pretty strong hurdle.
 

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Demand for electric can drop fast when there are other options, but if you outlaw the other options (petrol engines), then all of sudden the demand side changes... PDQ... and then you have scalability, and the supply chain catches up, and with volume and large numbers comes efficiency... and while it won't be perfect (heck, it took 15-20 years to dig out of the regulatory and emission blitz of the 1970's), it will all sort itself out... with subsidies over and under the table. Farms exist because of subsidies. We been doing this crap since forever. Not that I approve, but it's just a messy mess that's been done.

Funny thing about necessity: It's the mother of invention. Gubberments survive on the back of capitalists and innovators by forcing their hand (necessity). Then the supply starts feeding the demand.

Humans do real good and even gooder at times, when the problem is serious and backs are against the wall. And we ain't working from scratch. The big boys are in the game.

(The reason this thread exists is because industry 'gets it' and is doing what must be done. See how that works? Amazeballs)
.
 

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The future is Asia and China will be the dominant global power, fully focused on their nation and exploiting their right to fossil/carbon fuels, while the misguided West surrenders themselves to an ideology that eats themselves from within.

China and others will be producing cars for their own fossil/carbon based economy and green junk for the do-gooder countries.

Ultimately, as the brown and yellow nations rise, fossil fuel use will rise. China leverage off charts. Western leverage anemic.

This SEMI global push away from carbon based fuel does not stop or decrease CO2, it just pushes it to countries who burn it more irresponsibly, grow into powerhouses and capitilize on the fastest way to grow an economy.

There is x amt of fossil fuels and they'll all be used, if not by responsible countries, then by growing economies who have a right to grow into powerhouses first, and lifting billions from poverty.


"..the misguided West surrenders themselves to an ideology that eats themselves from within" is very very true, unfortunately! It's a misguided ideology, church-like behaviour, with almost no rational foundation. People just feel good by fantasize that we are the "good" ones and we would save the world with these stupid measures wich destroy our economy. Communism oerall, goverment and ideological brain-wash regulates us, this will be (as always) our salvage (brave new world).


I'm not against new Technologies (the opposite), but it must be a free competition of ideas. We will then adopt what we think is good for us (we know it better than governments, and we pay it with our Money)!!
 

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"..the misguided West surrenders themselves to an ideology that eats themselves from within" is very very true, unfortunately! It's a misguided ideology, church-like behaviour, with almost no rational foundation. People just feel good by fantasize that we are the "good" ones and we would save the world with these stupid measures wich destroy our economy. Communism oerall, goverment and ideological brain-wash regulates us, this will be (as always) our salvage (brave new world).


I'm not against new Technologies (the opposite), but it must be a free competition of ideas. We will then adopt what we think is good for us (we know it better than governments, and we pay it with our Money)!!
100%

The only problem is that it was the market which gave us VHS and Beta.
In terms electrification (or other alternative fuel), the stakes are so great that it becomes a chicken-and-egg thing. Which came first, the charging/refuelling network or the cars which use that particular format. "Biggest" or "first to market" does not always mean most sustainable or best. I hope we are not all saddled with Tesla technology for the rest of this century!

You can see, possibly, a role for governments in setting a direction for the market to follow. Especially in places where the electric grid is government owned and/or rates are set by a quasi-governement body. Unfortunately, we have politicians who cannot see past the next election cycle trying to do this. What's more, you get many different levels of government involved, across various nations - most of whom will take a generation to agree on the name to give the body which might one day oversee the new technology. Canada or Uganda will follow what the major players decide. The USA, China, Russia, India, and EU, each of whom have competing interests and are at different stages of economic development, will all have their own ideas.

The market might be able to sort this out all by itself, but only by consolidation and through cooperation of major players. That would be the best case scenario in terms of a FCA/Renault merger (or Ford/GM, etc).
 

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Renault is further along the electrification route than Fiat so the merger may be a means by which Fiat can get quicker access to the technology. I’m still thinking, ‘God, no!’
 

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The industry has embraced the electrification because there are no longer coming fumes out of a car, and TADAA, we have a clean product.
Half of the small dust coming from a car is from tires, brakes, ... A car that weighs more (read with batteries) produces more small dust of this type.

And then there's the energy needed to move the car forward. The electricity or hydrogen gas has to come from somewhere!
Electricity can be made with nuclear, gas, wind, solar, ...

Burning gas to make electricity and then distribute it through a grid that looses 3 to 4 times the energy that is finally used doubtfully brings you the ecological gains over burning it right away.
Nuclear works without CO2, but brings a whole new problem of pollution we can not deal with, requires the construction of tons of new plants, and is limited in its resources.

So we end up with wind and solar. I strongly believe these are still the way to go, but not if they are over-subsidized, and e.g. panels are transported from china with a ship running on pure oil!!
And even if we use clear electricity for driving cars, it's not that we have any in surplus at the moment!

We should start with switching all electricity production to renewable sources before even using more of it.
We will have to use transportation (aviation above all) less and less and look for way to use less energy in any sort of way.
We have to move faster, before cars are completely demonized.

If we succeed in that, and get people that don't like to drive from the roads and when needed driving an electric shared car, there will be a recreational use of petrol cars possible.
Or as someone once told me: "The last drop of fuel will be used in a Ferrari." Just let us hope it's an Alfa Romeo instead ;-)
 

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The industry has embraced the electrification because there are no longer coming fumes out of a car, and TADAA, we have a clean product.
Half of the small dust coming from a car is from tires, brakes, ... A car that weighs more (read with batteries) produces more small dust of this type.

And then there's the energy needed to move the car forward. The electricity or hydrogen gas has to come from somewhere!
Electricity can be made with nuclear, gas, wind, solar, ...

Burning gas to make electricity and then distribute it through a grid that looses 3 to 4 times the energy that is finally used doubtfully brings you the ecological gains over burning it right away.
Nuclear works without CO2, but brings a whole new problem of pollution we can not deal with, requires the construction of tons of new plants, and is limited in its resources.

So we end up with wind and solar. I strongly believe these are still the way to go, but not if they are over-subsidized, and e.g. panels are transported from china with a ship running on pure oil!!
And even if we use clear electricity for driving cars, it's not that we have any in surplus at the moment!

We should start with switching all electricity production to renewable sources before even using more of it.
We will have to use transportation (aviation above all) less and less and look for way to use less energy in any sort of way.
We have to move faster, before cars are completely demonized.

If we succeed in that, and get people that don't like to drive from the roads and when needed driving an electric shared car, there will be a recreational use of petrol cars possible.
Or as someone once told me: "The last drop of fuel will be used in a Ferrari." Just let us hope it's an Alfa Romeo instead ;-)
Din’t forget that if your electric car is in China or West Virginia, it’s basically running on coal! :wink2:
But you take the tailpipe pollution out of the cities and away from most voters. Well, maybe not an issue in China, LOL.

Unfortunately, “renewables” aren’t up to the job. In Ontario, we’ve had huge investment in wind (I can see 50 turbines from my property - no exaggeration) and yet with all of them running (they get priority over all but nuclear, by contract) they still produce less than 2% of demand this relatively cool Saturday morning (no A/C demand and many industries and offices idle). And they are expensive to run, with questionable reliability. With so many in view, I can tell you a sample %-age uptime! The line loss is an interesting point. I had no idea it was that big.

Renewables powering hydrogen production for fuel cell use might be more efficient.

I like the quote about the last drop of fuel!
 

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I retired from the Gas and Electric business in 2004....but back than windmills were the "in" thing in California where I lived than. The real driver for wind power was the subsidies iven to them by Government....just like the subsidies for all electric cars that is going away soon. Will people still want to buy them when they have to pay the full price. A very small percentage of grid power is generated by windmill farms. And how about solar. I remember reading a study that said we could supply all the power needed by a city the size of San Francisco.....all it would take is the state of Nevada covered by solar arrays.
And early post her mentioned video tapes....remember when there was a big fight for market share for the two competing technologies. The one that won out was not the best. Likewise...what sort of standardization is in the planning for recharging stations. Will a Tesla work with a GM or Ford or.....some other car. Obviously you can't build a network to only supply one vehicle.....and what happens if you choose wrong and buy the car that doesn't "win" the public acceptance war.
In short I wonder if any of this will work out without huge winners and losers. You can see why ALL automotive companies are sitting under a gigantic financial risk.I have had lots of discussions here in Detroit area with engineers and managers at the big auto companies....to put it simply....they are nervous as hell.
 

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Wind turbines only have about a 20 year useful life too. And once they die, they are often just left in place to rot. A blot on the landscape and a menace to birds (we love our raptors in the USA -- national symbol and all that). Small scale solar on rooftops still makes sense I think, but I don't much care for the large scale solar farms that consume our desert acreage. Again, a menace to wildlife.


I'd like to see more emphasis on nuclear. Its natural development has been cut short by "environmentalists" in the USA. I wonder what the state of the art would be now had that not happened? Even using 1950s technology, it is by far the safest form of energy generation if you just look at statistics objectively (yes, even when Russians are involved or Tsunamis happen). Many of the more scientific environmental leaders are coming to this conclusion. I'm not a NIMBY. One of the USA's operating nuclear power stations (Comanche Peak) is in my town which means a lot of my neighbors are U.S. Navy trained nuclear engineers. We have excellent air quality here and are exempt from Clean Air Act vehicle inspections.



I recently saw some statistics on CO2 output. The USA is currently at 1995 levels and falling -- increased efficiencies, loss of industry and more generation with natural gas are the main drivers. My recollection from that presentation is that France is at 1950s levels . . . thanks mostly to a lot of nuclear generation.


I suspect that US tariffs on Chinese goods may do more to reduce worldwide CO2 emissions than the Paris accord. Ironic?


Anyway, the internet is great. Do your own research and try to get to original sources -- that stuff is out there if you look. The US government is particularly good at publishing raw data and reports. It helps if you have scientific training obviously.
 

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Agreed about nuclear power. The town I grew up on was the first town to have a nuclear power plant for domestic consumption (Humboldt Power plant in Eureka, California). It was decommissioned later as too expensive to update due to public opposition to nuclear. I also worked my entire career for the company that owns the Diablo Canyon Nuclear power plant in California. I hear where you are coming from re: the NIMBYs ! I can tell you stories.......
 

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I’m still optimistic for some type of hydrogen powered cars. But I remember the first time I heard about it was way back I n the 80’s end it hasn’t come along nearly as fast as I thought it would. It really seems the only way to go as every other technology is actually quite wasteful except for regenerative braking.

Necessity is the mother of invention. I remember about eight years ago gasoline prices were high and there was a short-lived fad to run your car off the used cooking waste oil from restaurants. People converted their cars to burn this oil instead of gas but it was just too complicated to use such dirty contaminated oil and the fad died out pretty much.
But for a while I was able to sell my waste oil for money. Best I can do now is they will pick it up for free.
I still remember a few times when people would contact me at my restaurants and see if they could have my waste oil and put it into their car’s fuel tank in my back parking lot.
Reminded me of that great scene in the movie Back to the Future.
And in that movie by coincidence it sure looks like some type of hydrogen fusion power to me.
I’m holding out for Mr. Fusion to become technologically and economically feasible. I really think it will happen!
So save your banana peels and old beer!
Japanese will probably pioneer it:
Mass-produced hydrogen car. I’ve seen the refilling stations in California:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-this-the-car-of-our-future_b_6616390
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai

Wouldn’t this be a fun car to drive around!!
https://qz.com/494298/a-trash-fueled-delorean-just-like-in-back-to-the-future-will-soon-cruise-through-tokyo/amp/
 
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