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Now I'm Broke,

Please put the brakes on, or as they say in the westerns "Whoa there".

If you change everything on your car that throws up a code when the computer is telling lies, then you really will be broke in no time.

The sensors and computers on the 4C require very stable voltage to be able to tell what's going on.

You have been on track for the first time and have had a few little excursions where there may have been shock loads applied to your car including the battery.

You are getting lots of codes thrown up that aren't all related to a single point of failure, so it is extremely unlikely that you have all of those different sensors failing at the same time... it is more likely that something is making the computer think it has a lot of different problems, rather than it actually having those problems.

A few of the guys on here that are very experienced with these cars have already pointed you towards the battery. You can do a few quick checks on the battery yourself, including the cleanliness of the terminals and the tightness of those terminals. You can also purchase a battery load tester and check the battery under load to see if you have one cell failing.

Some checks - for example the battery load test and alternator power output can be carried out by an auto-electrician. It doesn't have to be your clueless local Alfa dealer, or the ones located hours away.

Also if you share your location on this thread, there may be a member on here that knows a good independent workshop that is near enough for you to use.

Don't despair - this is probably something very simple and not as expensive as you may think.

Just rule out the simple things first before you go pulling every sensor.

Good luck with the fault diagnosis.

Cheers,

Alf.
 

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Now I'm Broke,

Please put the brakes on, or as they say in the westerns "Whoa there".

If you change everything on your car that throws up a code when the computer is telling lies, then you really will be broke in no time.

The sensors and computers on the 4C require very stable voltage to be able to tell what's going on.

You have been on track for the first time and have had a few little excursions where there may have been shock loads applied to your car including the battery.

You are getting lots of codes thrown up that aren't all related to a single point of failure, so it is extremely unlikely that you have all of those different sensors failing at the same time... it is more likely that something is making the computer think it has a lot of different problems, rather than it actually having those problems.

A few of the guys on here that are very experienced with these cars have already pointed you towards the battery. You can do a few quick checks on the battery yourself, including the cleanliness of the terminals and the tightness of those terminals. You can also purchase a battery load tester and check the battery under load to see if you have one cell failing.

Some checks - for example the battery load test and alternator power output can be carried out by an auto-electrician. It doesn't have to be your clueless local Alfa dealer, or the ones located hours away.

Also if you share your location on this thread, there may be a member on here that knows a good independent workshop that is near enough for you to use.

Don't despair - this is probably something very simple and not as expensive as you may think.

Just rule out the simple things first before you go pulling every sensor.

Good luck with the fault diagnosis.

Cheers,

Alf.
I'm not looking to change every sensor. If im getting an O2 sensor code, its more than likely a bad o2 sensor. Something probably did come loose but I've checked the terminals and they're clean. I tried to have napa check the battery and they said they couldn't because they dont know the cold cranking amps so any reading they get, is irrelevant because they don't have a good starting point.

I plan on taking it off and taking it somewhere else and see if they can determine if it has a bad cell or not.

I have not looked into getting a battery checker myself but I guess I could do that and learn how to use it.

I live in Memphis TN.

I've never heard of the term auto-electrician but I can look into that.

There's about 70 members in our exotic car group and none of them have found a good mechanic they trust to work on their vehicles. They always trailor their cars across state lines to have them fixed. They obviously have the money to do that, but they only do that because they have yet to find anyone here who does decent work.

I'll know more after I have the battery checked of course.
 

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Your techs needing to know the CCA of your battery must be retarded - it's usually written on the sticker on the battery.... anyway, the exact current isn't important, just what the voltage drops to when a load is placed on it... and if they don't understand that, then they don't deserve you handing over the key to your 4C.

The above link may help you with understanding what is involved with checking a battery and what the cost is likely to be for you.

Sounds like your area really sucks for skilled car technicians... there must be someone on here that can help this guy out with someone in his area that knows what they are doing with cars.

An auto electrician is a term used where I'm from for a specialist that deals with the car's electrical systems and air conditioning systems. They work on all types of vehicles and have a good understanding of how different systems integrate with each other. They will have the necessary diagnostic equipment and access to the correct data. The internet is your friend for locating these guys.

Surely you have a "car savvy" mate that can help out. (Hope that slang translates OK).

Shame I don't live locally, I would be able to help out.

Good luck !!!

Cheers,

Alf.
 

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Discussion Starter #24

Your techs needing to know the CCA of your battery must be retarded - it's usually written on the sticker on the battery.... anyway, the exact current isn't important, just what the voltage drops to when a load is placed on it... and if they don't understand that, then they don't deserve you handing over the key to your 4C.

The above link may help you with understanding what is involved with checking a battery and what the cost is likely to be for you.

Sounds like your area really sucks for skilled car technicians... there must be someone on here that can help this guy out with someone in his area that knows what they are doing with cars.

An auto electrician is a term used where I'm from for a specialist that deals with the car's electrical systems and air conditioning systems. They work on all types of vehicles and have a good understanding of how different systems integrate with each other. They will have the necessary diagnostic equipment and access to the correct data. The internet is your friend for locating these guys.

Surely you have a "car savvy" mate that can help out. (Hope that slang translates OK).

Shame I don't live locally, I would be able to help out.

Good luck !!!

Cheers,

Alf.
So this is the battery out of the car. Im at O'Reilly's now. They claim to have to put in the cold cranking amps on their battery tester and the battery doesn't show it so they cant test it. They so said they can't get one.

Went to autozone. They tested it and it came back good. But they also said they cant get me one if it does go bad.
 

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they said they couldn't because they dont know the cold cranking amps so any reading they get, is irrelevant because they don't have a good starting point.

I plan on taking it off and taking it somewhere else and see if they can determine if it has a bad cell or not.

I have not looked into getting a battery checker myself but I guess I could do that and learn how to use it.

I live in Memphis TN.

I've never heard of the term auto-electrician but I can look into that.


I'll know more after I have the battery checked of course.
How wouldn’t they know the cold cranking amps? All they need to do is look it up then test it against the specs.
Any battery shop will be able to load test the battery for you?
Aye? Never heard of an auto-electrician? They are a very helpful/useful trade down here.
Step 1. Check the battery first.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
How wouldn’t they know the cold cranking amps? All they need to do is look it up then test it against the specs.
Any battery shop will be able to load test the battery for you?
Aye? Never heard of an auto-electrician? They are a very helpful/useful trade down here.
Step 1. Check the battery first.
I replied ^^^^^
 

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Don't worry that this particular battery is not stocked anywhere near you - there are other options available and plenty of threads about light-weight options and direct replacements on this forum. We will leave that alone at this stage.

Now you have the battery out and it has been tested OK, buy some battery terminal grease (which you put on the outside of the clamps when it is back together, not between the battery terminals and the clamps, to prevent corrosion) and be sure to get a cleaning brush to clean the battery clamps internal surfaces as these oxidise and increase resistance. These items are available from any auto-store (sorry don't know the corporate brands in the US). The internet is your friend for locating where to find this stuff locally.
battery terminal grease
battery terminal brush
Fully charge your battery before re-installing it - this includes time for an "absorption" charge (if it is a standard Sealed Maintenance Free (SMF) battery) which will happen automatically provided you have a good multi-step charger or battery tender. This will ensure the battery that you have is as good as it is going to get. Even regularly used cars will benefit from the occasional absorption charge as it cleans the plates in the battery cells, making it easier for it to charge in the first place, retain it's charge and discharge efficiently when it is in use.

Refit battery, ensuring battery terminal clamps are tight and that you apply terminal grease to the outside afterwards to prevent moisture ingress and corrosion (these lead to high resistance and that can cause issues with the car's electrical systems).

Clear codes.

Restart engine.

Test-drive and check for codes re-appearing.

Report back :)

Cheers,

Alf
 
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The physical state of that battery has me concerned. Is that just dust? If so, then dust must be getting into other areas (connections) that might cause some problems. Do you have any Mopar dealers near you? I would guess they could get a replacement for you. How about an Interstate Battery store? I go to my local one for all my replacements. They know their stuff and can do a bench test for you. Anyway, good luck and I hope it's as simple as the battery for your fix!
 

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Don't worry that this particular battery is not stocked anywhere near you - there are other options available and plenty of threads about light-weight options and direct replacements on this forum. We will leave that alone at this stage.

Now you have the battery out and it has been tested OK, buy some battery terminal grease (which you put on the outside of the clamps when it is back together, not between the battery terminals and the clamps, to prevent corrosion) and be sure to get a cleaning brush to clean the battery clamps internal surfaces as these oxidise and increase resistance. These items are available from any auto-store (sorry don't know the corporate brands in the US). The internet is your friend for locating where to find this stuff locally.
battery terminal grease
battery terminal brush
Fully charge your battery before re-installing it - this includes time for an "absorption" charge (if it is a standard Sealed Maintenance Free (SMF) battery) which will happen automatically provided you have a good multi-step charger or battery tender. This will ensure the battery that you have is as good as it is going to get. Even regularly used cars will benefit from the occasional absorption charge as it cleans the plates in the battery cells, making it easier for it to charge in the first place, retain it's charge and discharge efficiently when it is in use.

Refit battery, ensuring battery terminal clamps are tight and that you apply terminal grease to the outside afterwards to prevent moisture ingress and corrosion (these lead to high resistance and that can cause issues with the car's electrical systems).

Clear codes.

Restart engine.

Test-drive and check for codes re-appearing.

Report back :)

Cheers,

Alf
I've sold my other vehicles except my bike so this is pretty much my only mode of transportation right now considering freezing temperatures.

I do not have a battery charger so charging a battery isn't really an option right now unless I go buy one.

Here's a few pics of the terminals. I work at a very dusty place so theres really no way around that, but I wiped then down good and put them back on. I can get some grease and put on the terminals.

The rate at which the CEL is coming back on is much faster than yesterday ive noticed. The code is still showing it's the O2 Circuit High Voltage Bank 1, Sensor 2. I have a friend contacting an auto-electrician that he's used before. Not really sure what to tell him my problem is other than getting different codes at different times.
 

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The physical state of that battery has me concerned. Is that just dust? If so, then dust must be getting into other areas (connections) that might cause some problems. Do you have any Mopar dealers near you? I would guess they could get a replacement for you. How about an Interstate Battery store? I go to my local one for all my replacements. They know their stuff and can do a bench test for you. Anyway, good luck and I hope it's as simple as the battery for your fix!
Love the yellow 4C. That was my next thought process if my battery isn't operating at 100% capacity. I've heard interstate batteries are great so I'd just replace it with whatever they suggest.
 

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I've sold my other vehicles except my bike so this is pretty much my only mode of transportation right now considering freezing temperatures.

I do not have a battery charger so charging a battery isn't really an option right now unless I go buy one.

Here's a few pics of the terminals. I work at a very dusty place so theres really no way around that, but I wiped then down good and put them back on. I can get some grease and put on the terminals.

The rate at which the CEL is coming back on is much faster than yesterday ive noticed. The code is still showing it's the O2 Circuit High Voltage Bank 1, Sensor 2. I have a friend contacting an auto-electrician that he's used before. Not really sure what to tell him my problem is other than getting different codes at different times.
Hi,

There's another clue that would have been useful to know at the start of this remote diagnosis process. The freezing temperatures will affect the performance of your battery considerably. Batteries work on a reversible chemical process that gets slower as things get cooler. Engine oil gets thicker as it gets colder. This combines to place more stress on the electrical system when you are starting an engine in the cold, which basically means that you will need to draw a higher current from your battery than you would on a lovely Summer's day. This higher current draw, if high enough, will cause a voltage drop from your battery and the cars on-board computers will get all sorts of false information. This is what is causing your codes to be thrown. The fact that you are getting different codes thrown up at different times is proof of this.

Next item - That certainly is a dusty environment you have there and from what I can see, those battery terminals do need a clean, so do that too.

The photo showing the clamp still fitted to the negative terminal - that is designed to be a quick-release lever so that's you do not have to undo the nuts on the cables that attach to that battery post. Simply flick the lever and you will be able to remove that clamp from the battery post.

Safety first - never short out directly between the battery terminals and remove all jewellery first to avoid injury (don't ask why I include this warning, just assume that it involves shorting out a battery with a spanner/wrench, blowing a hole in a red-hot glowing gold wedding ring and badly burning a finger, then burning other fingers to remove said red-hot ring). If the battery is out of the car, or the terminals have been disconnected for charging, after charging the battery allow time for the gases that are being given off in the charging process to dissipate before refitting the battery terminals. Hydrogen gas tends to burn well and can even be explosive in the right conditions (again don't ask!).

I will assume that you have the battery re-installed and all of those cables re-connected.
  1. I need you to unlock that clamp from the - (negative) battery terminal and disconnect that negative terminal clamp from the battery.
  2. Disconnect the + (positive) clamp from the battery.
  3. Right, the nest step is a bit of "bush-mechanics" as we say in Australia: get a jug of hot (not boiling) water in a jug/kettle and pour it over the battery's + and - posts to remove any deposits, then do the same with the battery clamps. This will remove any soluble deposits that may have formed. Avoid using excessive amounts of water that can pool in other areas and freeze later potentially causing damage.
  4. Without burning your hands, dry the battery terminals and clamps with paper towel, or a clean rag.
  5. A battery-post/cable-clamp cleaning tool is ideal, but if not, you can make do with a wire brush or some emery cloth/fine grit abrasive paper, clean up the surfaces of the battery + and - terminals that contact the cable-clamp surface, then clean up the inside of the battery cable-clamps themselves. Note that you do not need to be aggressive here, just a light clean-up of the surfaces to remove any oxidation.
  6. With a clean rag/paper towel, wipe the cleaned surfaces to remove any remaining deposits.
  7. [edit] Apply a very thin coating of dielectric battery grease to the battery + and - posts and the inside of the battery clamps if you have some available, to prevent oxidation from re-occurring.
  8. Refit the + (positive) battery clamp first. Tighten sufficiently to just enough that you cannot twist the clamp by hand (the battery post is soft and easy to squeeze it too tight).
  9. Refit the - (negative) battery terminal and close the clamp. Give the clamp a wiggle to ensure that it is tight on the battery post.
  10. [edit] Apply battery grease to the + and - terminals if you have it to prevent oxidation from re-occurring.
  11. Recharge your battery fully (see comments below)
  12. Clear the codes on your computer.
  13. Start the engine.
  14. Check for codes.
  15. You will need to fully cycle the windows up and down to reset the range of movement.
You are going to need to purchase that battery charger as your battery needs to be fully charged in the cold weather if you are to have any chance of clearing the codes and not have them re-appear. Make sure you purchase a good one that does multi-stage charging and give it the time to do its job to try and fully restore your battery. This can take 24 hours or more if the battery is in poor condition and the battery is in a cold environment.

Good luck!

Cheers,

Alf.
 
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I wanted to clear up some misinformation about using battery grease. The grease is a dielectric grease which is an insulator....which it is BUT....the reason it is used is because the mating surfaces of the battery post and clamp, even though cleaned are not a tight perfect match.When fastened together those tiny air spaces and voids between the two components are the place where oxidation forms and gradually get worse and cause a bad connection. The correct way to use dielectric grease is to first clean the two surfaces very well with the wire brushes available cheaply at car parts stores....one end is for the post, the other for the clamp. Now wipe a VERY thin coat on both of the mating surfaces and than clamp together. The metal parts in contact will be protected as the grease squeezes out so metal to metal contact is assured and any voids will remain filled with the grease preventing oxidation.
I was an electrical engineer (now retired) so have a lot of info on this.
You can also check this link below which explains the whole thing. Note this is appropriate for low voltage like a car battery and light bulb sockets (sold as bulb grease in stores) but NOT high voltage where the grease can off-gas and create other problems.

 

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Nope, they didn't test it because they didn't want to take it off the car and they said they couldn't find the cold cranking amps so without that they wouldn't know if its good or not.

I have found a pattern though. At least with the other codes. If I try to scan the codes with the E brake on, thats when it gives me all the extra codes. If I scan it with the E brake off, the only code it gives me is the o2 sensor code.

I can still drive the car in any mode with the scanner saying I have the o2 sensor code, its only when it randomly decides to throw the CEL is when it goes into limp mode. And even in limp mode, it still feels like it has plenty of power.

I finally found a place that work on my car, but they said their labor rate is $150 an hr and they have to order the parts so im looking at $700 to change both o2 sensors. So no thanks, ill change it myself and deal with the hassle and hope that fixes it.
I can't speak for the 4C stock battery, but most batteries have the CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) printed clearly on the battery case...either on top or side.
 

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I can't speak for the 4C stock battery, but most batteries have the CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) printed clearly on the battery case...either on top or side.
Unfortunately this one does not. Taking it to alfa next week and they're checking it and if its bad, they'll replace for free because its still under warrenty.
 

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Would be useful for you to post what the CCA is for the battery....also part number of factory battery.

The stock battery is
width 6 3/4"
length 9 1/2"
height 7 1/2"

That equates to a Group 47 or H5 sizing. So hope that helps in locating an appropriate battery.

I am not sure what the CCA is though so if you can determine that it would help us a lot....we could post in the stickies.
 

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I wanted to clear up some misinformation about using battery grease. The grease is a dielectric grease which is an insulator....which it is BUT....the reason it is used is because the mating surfaces of the battery post and clamp, even though cleaned are not a tight perfect match.When fastened together those tiny air spaces and voids between the two components are the place where oxidation forms and gradually get worse and cause a bad connection. The correct way to use dielectric grease is to first clean the two surfaces very well with the wire brushes available cheaply at car parts stores....one end is for the post, the other for the clamp. Now wipe a VERY thin coat on both of the mating surfaces and than clamp together. The metal parts in contact will be protected as the grease squeezes out so metal to metal contact is assured and any voids will remain filled with the grease preventing oxidation.
I was an electrical engineer (now retired) so have a lot of info on this.
You can also check this link below which explains the whole thing. Note this is appropriate for low voltage like a car battery and light bulb sockets (sold as bulb grease in stores) but NOT high voltage where the grease can off-gas and create other problems.

Thanks for that info - I will take that on-board 😁

[edit] I have edited the post to correct my misinformation.

Cheers,

Alf.
 
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Discussion Starter #38
Yes sir, will definitely do.
Would be useful for you to post what the CCA is for the battery....also part number of factory battery.

The stock battery is
width 6 3/4"
length 9 1/2"
height 7 1/2"

That equates to a Group 47 or H5 sizing. So hope that helps in locating an appropriate battery.

I am not sure what the CCA is though so if you can determine that it would help us a lot....we could post in the stickies.
r,
Would be useful for you to post what the CCA is for the battery....also part number of factory battery.

The stock battery is
width 6 3/4"
length 9 1/2"
height 7 1/2"

That equates to a Group 47 or H5 sizing. So hope that helps in locating an appropriate battery.

I am not sure what the CCA is though so if you can determine that it would help us a lot....we could post in the stickies.
Yes sir, will definitely do.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Thanks for that info - I will take that on-board 😁

[edit] I have edited the post to correct my misinformation.

Cheers,

Alf.
So I had the Bank 1, sensor 2 02 sensor replaced. I could tell immediately that it had more power, but its still throwing the 2 main codes it was before: P0687 and P0138.

Tomorrow morning I have an appointment with the Alfa dealership closest to me and they're suppose to check the battery. Ill be dropping it off at 9am, they'll take it off and charge it I'm assuming and check it. If it's bad, they said they'll replace it for free. If not, do yall think I should go ahead and replace it anyways? Its an 18 model and I drive it everyday so I think it would be fine, but I have no idea honestly if it would be worth it to change it.

I have taken the cat off and installed the downpipe in its place, so with that being said it also has the phase 2 tune with CEL delete and pops and bangs.

Did that void my warrenty? And if so, do I need to tell them?

Granted, my 4C was the first and only 4C they have ever seen so I dont they'll even know what they're doing, but thats my situation as of now.

They said they'll provide me with a loaner car for the day so im interested in seeing what that will be as well.
 

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Bring the service manager and the tech each a nice bottle of Chianti and schmooze a bit.
Your mods would not have voided your warranty with respect to the battery (I believe that is covered on the 4C for the full 4 years, although this is not always the case in all cars), if they find fault with that. But technically, he probably has every right to deny a warranty claim on any engine or exhaust-related issues (such as your codes) based on your modifications.
In the end, it is the decision of the service manager that will determine if they fight for warranty coverage for you, or laugh in your face. Set yourself up for success.

I would suggest that you put the stock ECU back in and drive it for some distance (for the codes to store), before going to the dealer. If he needs to update software, that could over-write your tune. Of course, if it is an update that solves your codes, it won't help on the tuned ECU. Double-edged sword there!
 
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