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I‘ve owned my 2018 4C for about two months now, and have read a lot about “tramlining“ and instability at high speeds. I’ve encountered both and it’s disturbing, if not dangerous.

Wondering if the problem is not tires etc BUT a front end that’s too light. After all, there’s nothing up there with the hood sealed shut but…some metal, wheels & suspension. Would the problem be solved with ballast??
 

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I‘ve owned my 2018 4C for about two months now, and have read a lot about “tramlining“ and instability at high speeds. I’ve encountered both and it’s disturbing, if not dangerous.

Wondering if the problem is not tires etc BUT a front end that’s too light. After all, there’s nothing up there with the hood sealed shut but…some metal, wheels & suspension. Would the problem be solved with ballast??
Try an older 911.
The 4c is light 'all around' and mid engine which requires a certain type of driving style (which I have in no way come close to mastering yet).
That is not to say that a proper alignment and checkup of suspension etc might not be warranted.



119969
 

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I‘ve owned my 2018 4C for about two months now, and have read a lot about “tramlining“ and instability at high speeds. I’ve encountered both and it’s disturbing, if not dangerous.

Wondering if the problem is not tires etc BUT a front end that’s too light. After all, there’s nothing up there with the hood sealed shut but…some metal, wheels & suspension. Would the problem be solved with ballast??
The fact that it happens at relatively low speeds (when aerodynamic lift is of little consequence), and can be dialed out by alignment as most of us have discovered, makes me think that any other solution is not as elegant.

Put ballast in front if you want, but you will have Sergio spinning in his grave! The car's ethos is all about lightness. By all means, learn how to transfer weight to the front and hold it there, but don't add any for the sake of a problem that can so easily be rectified by a few shims and a turn or two of a nut. If those solutions don't completely do it for you, then go to a better constructed tire.

My CDN $0.02, anyway.
 

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The fact that it happens at relatively low speeds (when aerodynamic lift is of little consequence), and can be dialed out by alignment as most of us have discovered, makes me think that any other solution is not as elegant.

Put ballast in front if you want, but you will have Sergio spinning in his grave! The car's ethos is all about lightness. By all means, learn how to transfer weight to the front and hold it there, but don't add any for the sake of a problem that can so easily be rectified by a few shims and a turn or two of a nut. If those solutions don't completely do it for you, then go to a better constructed tire.

My CDN $0.02, anyway.
I thought he meant he had both
1) “tramlining“ and
2) instability at high speed
may have read incorrectly...damn vaccines lol
 

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I‘ve owned my 2018 4C for about two months now, and have read a lot about “tramlining“ and instability at high speeds. I’ve encountered both and it’s disturbing, if not dangerous.

Wondering if the problem is not tires etc BUT a front end that’s too light. After all, there’s nothing up there with the hood sealed shut but…some metal, wheels & suspension. Would the problem be solved with ballast??
It is weight to some extent. All rear-mid engine cars do it. The main difference is that the high end mid-rear engine cars have anti-squat mechanisms in place to reduce the effect. It still happens in those cars but it's reduced a lot.

You can minimized this with an aftermarket suspension but it does get costly. There is a reason the 4C does not cost the same as an Audi R8 or a McLaren 570S.
 

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I thought he meant he had both
1) “tramlining“ and
2) instability at high speed
may have read incorrectly...damn vaccines lol
Yeah, no...
I wasn't very clear. But if tramlining is an issue (which can happen as we know at lower speed), then the instability at high speeds could very likely be a feeling generated by the same alignment issues. Or tires. Or as SouthWaterXRS suggested, inflation pressure even.

The car does lighten up at speed, but a lot of that is characteristic of manual steering (just as it lightens up at 10km/hr vs 5 km/hr). Something we aren't so used to anymore, in these days of hydraulic feedback, or electric speed-proportional steering systems. Having caster-induced bump-steer issues or toe-out does not increase confidence as the speedometer gets closer to 200 Km/hr, though, that's for sure!
 

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A ground effect fan seems a little complicated but adding a little ground effect might be just the thing. That reminds me, I’ve an order to make with Cipsony.
Let us know what you make of those.
I'm tempted, but with my stock, non-race suspension, I feel I'll just grind them to nubs on the asphalt as the car rocks and rolls.
 

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Let us know what you make of those.
I'm tempted, but with my stock, non-race suspension, I feel I'll just grind them to nubs on the asphalt as the car rocks and rolls.
Yes, me as well. I think I’ll order the 5cm skirts simply for the practicality aspect. I’m looking at Intrax coil overs but will have them valved with my favourite road in mind. I’ve been communicating with Donald there. They’ve some interesting anti-roll tech that I wonder if someone could comment on. I’ll do some digging on the forum for a suitable thread or start another.
 

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While ground effects and aero are interesting topics, the basics apply first.

None of this is new as I have learned quickly. Tire pressures, no cost playing around. Super precise alignment to factory or zero toe, low cost, variances that work on other cars don’t work for the 4C. New tires, a moderate investment. The stock 205 pirellis are much narrower than wheel width with high stretch, 18/19 versus 17/18 and the stretch is even more pronounced. Aged out tires worse, and tires that appear good but have internal damage will act badly for sure.

Track suspension exacerbates the effect, stiffer/lower overall and GMS/Rudi has cited the good geometry of higher-set versus lower, without modifying control arms.

My own short experience on my stock, factory aligned sport suspension pirelli AR 18/19 is no significant tramlining and bump steer, at low or high speed, on all kinds of road surfaces. Just some moving around and slight tugging that I would expect from a very light , manual steer, short/wide car with low caster and toe out.

Two good data points. I bought a set of 17/18 with 2015/2018 date code AR still mounted, visually good. Installed on my car and scary, the car all over the road, even good roads, all phases of driving. Re-install the 18/19, all good. Install new 215/245 re71 on the 17/18, it’s all good.

I don’t feel the need for more stability by using zero toe and/or more caster with blocks. Might be more pronounced with a track suspension car but I have driven one with zero toe and good tires, no blocks and it felt good.

Get back to a base state, factory or zero toe alignment, work from there. Individual cars seem to have varying sensitivity and drivers have personal preferences. Use the zero toe and/or more caster with blocks if it makes you feel good.

FWIW Alfa has used toe out and/or aggressive Ackerman geometry on many cars including gtv6 and 164.
 

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IDK....
I have race suspension with Bridgestones and my car is stable.
Do not ballast the front, that is silly.
Some characteristics are inherit to the car. The front isnt "too light."
Get an alignment, try that and let us know how that works.
 

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IDK....
I have race suspension with Bridgestones and my car is stable.
Do not ballast the front, that is silly.
Some characteristics are inherit to the car. The front isnt "too light."
Get an alignment, try that and let us know how that works.
Yep, my little musings were due to lightness at around 200km/h, not at reasonable road speeds. In my case I do think some of it comes from a certain timidity arising from spending very little time around that speed. The more practise, the more confidence I’m sure will develop. That said, I’m really interested in how a little underside aero changes the feel at those speeds.
 

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Yep, my little musings were due to lightness at around 200km/h, not at reasonable road speeds. In my case I do think some of it comes from a certain timidity arising from spending very little time around that speed. The more practise, the more confidence I’m sure will develop.
Thats what, 120mph?
No, the front end is not going to fly away. :)
 

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Thats what, 120mph?
No, the front end is not going to fly away. :)
No, I know it’s not going to fly away, it’s just the feeling of lightness therefore the probability of reduced grip. I’ve only driven a Radical once and not long enough to really get my head around what the effect of true aero is. Even still, it left me gobsmacked it was so secure but I couldn’t trust it based on my lack of experience. I’m just after a little more security on one or two fast (160+km/h) corners at my local track.
 

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@Alfanut A little Aero can’t hurt, do you run a slight front rake? No coilovers yet for me, so no adjustability. Plus with my stock sport suspension ride height and 215/245 I’ll still run a lot of airflow under the car. I’d say most of my fun driving is only up to 100-110mph and the fastest 130mph.
 

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No, I know it’s not going to fly away, it’s just the feeling of lightness therefore the probability of reduced grip. I’ve only driven a Radical once and not long enough to really get my head around what the effect of true aero is. Even still, it left me gobsmacked it was so secure but I couldn’t trust it based on my lack of experience. I’m just after a little more security on one or two fast (160+km/h) corners at my local track.
I know Im just messing with ya
 
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