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Problems fitting uniballs due to variations in rear arm sleeve dimensions

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GMS - Rear arm uniballs

86K views 454 replies 64 participants last post by  HeavyFoot 
#1 ·
Hello,

I'll try to keep it short.

I loved my 4C since day one, but hated the handling from that day on. It kinda didn't match the looks, weight or engine performance of the car. From my point of view, handling was nothing less than disappointing. As I spend all of my money and even borrowed some for a brand new 4C, I just couldn't get past this disappointment so I was searching of a solution to this and here it is. Alfaworks front caster/camber plates fixed the front end, to get rid of tramlining, but the rear end was still a complete mess. Unpredictable, floaty and disconnected. Those of you who have ever driven Lotus, will know what I'm talking about. Those of you who didn't, give it a try, and trust me, you'll start to hate your 4C.

The good thing is that solution is now available to the public. Many of you have already noticed that we have developed a full uniball bushings conversion of rear arms for our 4C. Some of users have also installed and tried this mod, so I invite all of you who did, to share this sensation with other forum members here. I still believe it's the most important and cost effective handling upgrade to day. Even though it sound like a supershop ad, I hope it doesn't turn you off. Give it a try and I am absolutely sure, that those of you who are leaned more towards the perfromance driving won't regret it. At this point I'd really like to appeal to all of you, who are tracking your 4C to forget all the other modifications prior to sorting out the rubber bushings in the rear arms. Give a try to the uniball bushings, we've developed. It is, hands down, the most noticeable and cost effective mod you can make to get your 4C handle liek it should. It'll make your 4C shine from the handling point of view.

An here is the video proof, that car handles much better than stock now:

If anyone hasn't left a notice for a Santa Claus yet, here is the link: click

:smile2:

Regards,

Rudi

https://www.galemotorsport.com/product-page/alfa-romeo-4c-rear-arm-uniball-kit
 
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#4 ·
Just Ordered up a set of these bushings. I am hoping that along with my other suspension mods, which include the Alfa Works front Blocks, Bilstiens and Michelin Pilot Super Sports (plus one), that these bushing correct the "Rear Steering" effect. I will post more after the bushings have been installed. Here's hoping they correct this Flaw!!
 
#5 ·
Thank you for your support. I'll try to have the item dispatched by the end of the week. Rear steer effect will be disabled with this mod. Please, let us know how you'll like the change in handling. For me, the change was a 9s difference on the same track compared to stock car. I have changed tires, suspension and bushings. Hard to believe, but the biggest difference caused uniball conversion.

Don't forget to do the alignment afterwards.
 
#10 ·
Rudi is absolutely right that installing these very high quality uniball bushings will improve the rear suspension handling.

The change amazed me on the track after installing these. Best single
Upgrade you can make to the rear suspension for performance. Highly recommend these bushings.
 

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#13 ·
I'm glad you like it and it's nice to hear a review from a fellow track user!

Just ordered via PayPal. Merry Christmas Rudi. Been thinking about it for a while now. Thanks for the endorsement mdpsk.
Thank you for your support. I'll have items dispatched by the end of this week.

What is a rough estimate of time to do the conversion?
For a skilled shop about 1/2h dissembling rear arms + 1/2h installing bushings + 1/2 assembling rear arms + 1/2h alignment.

It's DIY-able within a few hours, but hydraulic press is required and wheel alignment afterwards.
 
#14 ·
You should sell some bushings for the front bushings also.
I bought a set of front replacement bushings from another vendor and then had my race shop mod my rear bushings using Delrin. So my effect is the same in the rear as yours but it would’ve been much cheaper to buy your bushings than what I paid my shop make the ones they did.

And I will wholeheartedly agree with you that getting rid of the slop in the bushings was absolutely a huge improvement. Although you’ve got to be ready to handle such a tight car and some street drivers might have some adjustment time getting used to it.

Something else I find interesting is that the Alfa Romeo Giulia is famous for how it turns in and handles. It is absolutely spectacular for a stock car. And I would compare that feeling to the mod you offer for the 4C. On my test drive with the Giulia on the very first turn I said “what the hell how can this car handle so tight, I had to pay good money to make my 4C handle like this”.

Also great driving in that video, really enjoyed it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#15 ·
Once your current rear bushings wear out, you're welcome to try our solution, it's definitely even more rigid than Delrin - polyurethane option, so car would be even sharper, which is what a track driver like you would appreciate.

About the thing "getting used to tight car". I read a lot of comments that stock, flexible bushings are more forgiving etc. I cannot agree with that. The main reason stock cars use rubber bushings is only because of durability. Rubber takes bumps very well and it forms back to it's primary shape after taking an impact, so on bumpy roads you can drive tens of thousands of km without needing a replacement. The problem is that on performance cars it's usually the handling, we care about not the durability, so that's why rubber bushings have no place in performance car like 4C. The problem with polyurethane bushings is squealing and squeaking and still not very good rigidity. Plastic bushings have better rigidity but once they get an impact, they don't form back to it's primary shape. And then we have uniballs which are super rigid and have zero movement in unwanted directions, but they have a lifespan shorter than rubber bushings, especially if used on the bumpy roads. If you can accept the wear and costs of replacement, which honestly is much less than a set of tires and will probably last more than a few seasons, than this is the first upgrade you should go for. If you can't accept the wear factor, than don't even bother installing a coilovers, stickier tires etc., as you won't get the potential out of the car in the matter of fact, it will only make it worse, because more grip will cause even more play in the rear arms. I've tried it and it's a disappointing to drive to say at least.

First trackday with my stock 4C on a known track to me was nothing but a disappointment. I just couldn't drive it on the limit, because it was simply unpredictable and very unforgiving. I sorted out the bushings and suspension and the second time I went to the same track I felt connected with my car. Handling was exactly like it should be, razor sharp and predictable. I immediately felt times were going to be fast and they were. Same car, same track, dropped 9s on 4km long track, it was amazing. And the lap times varied about 0.5s / lap, which meant I was very consistent.

From performance point view, I am absolutely sure, that every car should be as precise and rigid as possible. The reason Lotus is famous for it's razor sharp handling is exactly the rigidity and solid mounting of suspension arms. It's something that engineers at 4C probably didn't even bother about. With long rear arm leverage like 4C has, every minor flex in the bushings causes a big difference at the wheel. I should have made the video with stock car being on the alignment rack, where I could just by hand, force the rear wheel to move -/+0°05', even though at the bushings you could barely see the movement. Now imagine the force that car takes through the sticky tires on the track to the rear arms. I believe that if we had the chance to measure the dynamic alignment changes with telemetry, it would be all over the specs. This is what makes car unpredictable, numb and impossible to drive on the limit and there is no other solution to fix this, than to get rid of the play in the rear arm bushings. It goes the same for the front end, but leverages here are much shorter, car weighs less and there are 4x bushings per wheel, rather than 2 per wheel at the rear, therefor it flexes way less, so changing front rubber bushings with uniballs does improve handling a bit, but nowhere near as it does at the rear end.

About the video. Previous video is more fun to watch because there is some action with chasing GT3's, which is something everyone likes, but driving wasn't optimal (coasting, early braking, sub-optimal lines). This video, without co-passenger and smoother driving, the times were about 2s/lap faster than the previous video with GT3's and you can see that car is very predictable and precise. I'm glad I don't have a video from driving this track with stock 4C, as I was all over the track fighting with it. :wink2:

https://youtu.be/RUCMhXpURqI?list=PLxIhBSpbDe7EJBZtMQt9bZaCrIHlJ4uyO
 
#16 ·
Hello,

I'll try to keep it short.

I loved my 4C since day one, but hated the handling from that day on. It kinda didn't match the looks, weight or engine performance of the car. From my point of view, handling was nothing less than disappointing. As I spend all of my money and even borrowed some for a brand new 4C, I just couldn't get past this disappointment so I was searching of a solution to this and here it is. Alfaworks front caster/camber plates fixed the front end, to get rid of tramlining, but the rear end was still a complete mess. Unpredictable, floaty and disconnected. Those of you who have ever driven Lotus, will know what I'm talking about. Those of you who didn't, give it a try, and trust me, you'll start to hate your 4C.

The good thing is that solution is now available to the public. Many of you have already noticed that we have developed a full uniball bushings conversion of rear arms for our 4C. Some of users have also installed and tried this mod, so I invite all of you who did, to share this sensation with other forum members here. I still believe it's the most important and cost effective handling upgrade to day. Even though it sound like a supershop ad, I hope it doesn't turn you off. Give it a try and I am absolutely sure, that those of you who are leaned more towards the perfromance driving won't regret it. At this point I'd really like to appeal to all of you, who are tracking your 4C to forget all the other modifications prior to sorting out the rubber bushings in the rear arms. Give a try to the uniball bushings, we've developed. It is, hands down, the most noticeable and cost effective mod you can make to get your 4C handle liek it should. It'll make your 4C shine from the handling point of view.

An here is the video proof, that car handles much better than stock now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIQBD_6-4-w

If anyone hasn't left a notice for a Santa Claus yet, here is the link: click

:smile2:

Regards,

Rudi
I appreciate that there are many 4C owners on here who track the cars and would maybe appreciate some mod to the rear suspension, but I'm an owner who, apart from having the Alfaworks front geometry mod, is very happy with the current rear suspension set up. I've been driven around a handling track by an ex F1 driver who had no problem driving the car around the track at amazing speeds so there can't much wrong with it. TBH, I was somewhat annoyed that someone who is promoting their own mod has posted on this forum that, basically, is insinuating that my car is cr@p. I'm also puzzled as to how a video can show how much better a car handles on track as a comparison with the original set up. From the subsequent posts there seems to be a lot of interest from tracking 4C owners which is fair enough and fully understandable, but don't tell me I will start to hate my 4C just because I don't fit this mod. I get all the enjoyment I need out of my car on the road. Just saying.:|

AlfaArnold
 
#23 ·
I've been driven around a handling track by an ex F1 driver who had no problem driving the car around the track at amazing speeds so there can't much wrong with it.
Amazing speed is a subjective matter, while time is objective for everyone. And from my point of view lap times of stock 4C are not that impressive at all, compared to other cars with same power/weight ratio. Maybe there are drivers that can drive stock 4C within the lap times of my modded 4C. When that happens I'll return my race license and do a refund to all the buyers who have bought the uniball bushings.

TBH, I was somewhat annoyed that someone who is promoting their own mod has posted on this forum that, basically, is insinuating that my car is cr@p.
I understand that it is hard for you to accept that you just paid 60k€ or maybe even more for a brand new 4C and someone says it's not as capable as it looks. It's even worse going to the track and have budget, modded cars passing you in your shiny new toy that you are so emotionally attached to. It was hard for me too, to accept that my 20 years old modded BMW Z3M with about same power/weight ratio than 4C is so much faster on the track. But I believed in platform of 4C, so I worked on it and with every mod, it's revealing it's potential more and more. It's a very capable car, but not in a stock form. You don't need to believe me. You can read journalist publishing if you like, no one praises handling, or if you really want to see it for yourself, go to the track and you'll see what will Lotus Exige S in stock form for example do with laptimes of your stock 4C.

I'm also puzzled as to how a video can show how much better a car handles on track as a comparison with the original set up.
Like I said, I'm sorry that I don't have video from the track with stock 4C, so you can't actually compare it. But if you look at the video you can see that car was driven pretty much on the limit for my skill and I had no problem keeping it under control, what was impossible for me to do in stock form. I couldn't sense it when it's going to loose grip and how it's going to loose it. Maybe it would be better to show data logging on the same track with my stock and modded 4C (coilovers + tires + bushings).

https://ibb.co/fd6EC6

I get all the enjoyment I need out of my car on the road. Just saying.:|
I completely understand your point of view. If you're happy with stock car the way it is, than there is no need to change anything. I wasn't happy with the handing of the car from day 1, so I was looking for a solution and it seems to work for me and majority of track focused users here.

No harm intended to anyone, you have a beautiful car! :wink2:
 
#17 · (Edited)
Ex-F1 drivers can do things in cars the rest of us can only dream of!

Rudi isn’t saying that you’ll hate the car, and that he loves it too. But he hates the handling. You can’t love the handling either or you wouldn’t have needed to invest in Jamie’s suspension changes.

Being a well-balanced Libran, I agree with you both. I love Alfa Romeo and my 4C, but also hate many elements of the suspension: the way it tracks camber changes is very frustrating (Jamie’s race blocks fitted and geometry set to his recommendations); the rear end is hairy on the track because it isn’t consistent - and Rudie (and Jamie) offer sensible solutions to this; and the spring rates and damping are not suited to quick motoring on less than perfect surfaces - and others here have expressed their suggestions to resolve this. Coming to think about it, I think it’s a very pretty car with less than stellar suspension. If I didnt love Alfa Romeo I probably wouldn’t have bought it, and as much as I love the car I hate the lousy, poorly controlled ride (on UK roads) which will be addressed in the New Year by changing the dampers, road springs, and by buying Rudie’s bushes.

That you get enjoyment is fantastic, but some (including me) get enjoyment tempered with frustration, and this forum is excellent at offering different solutions for people’s different needs.

Back to the topic.....
 
#18 ·
I also believe that out of the box the 4c handles poorly, at least when you consider that it's a 1000 Kg car with rear engine and CF chassis. However, i also consider that is extremely fun to drive in it's stock format and it's the kind of car that takes time to learn and understand.
By just changing the front and rear geometry you improve the car a lot (actually I believe this is the most effective and cheaper way to improve the car) --> It will not necessarily make it more fun to drive but just safer and faster.

I initially went to the racetrack with improved geometry on both ends.
After that I installed the front blocks from Jamie and rear uniballs from Rudy --> Now I just need a hot day to properly test the car. Personally I felt a big improvement with geometry settings and a minor one with uniballs, but conditions were not optimal for tracking the car --> I will report back in spring.
 
#78 ·
I understand that you first correct the geometry without Jamie's blocks and notice a big improvement.
Then you ADD Jamie's blocks. Did you notice a difference then? I read a lot of users that experience a big improvement after installed Jamie's blocks buy always compared with the stock car and not compared to a car with the alligment properly do.

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk
 
#19 ·
Bottom line is I have never owned or driven a car that was perfect...including full race track only cars. A street car is always a bunch of compromises. Having owned and run a SCCA race car....ALFA GTV....I quickly realized my earlier statement. If you really want an all out race car you are better skipping ANY road car and focusing on a purpose built car like a spec racer. Drives better, easier to maintain, less hassle to do work on it, and haper in long run.
The bushing in this post sound like a good upgrade but concerned about their life. I do drive on bumpy roads at times. What do you think a reasonable life time mileage would be? I suspect that as they wear they also might get a lot noisier. And when installed to they telegraph a lot more road noise? Perhaps for combination of street and track use one of the harder elastomer inserts would be easier on the chassis and longer lived.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I too was shocked by the words “hate the handling”. Too strong for sure. And although I mod my car I try to be sensitive about people that don’t because I know this car isn’t just for trackers and I think it’s an awesome car stock too!
There’s some things I dislike about my car but I would never use that word in front of her!!
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!
And truthfully there’s nothing I really hate about the car at all.
Even those sun visors yikes, makes me strong!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#32 · (Edited)
I'm glad that we have gathered so many different thoughts here. I'll try to be as objective as possible in further conversation.

We (mostly me, my father and some help) have made quite a few custom parts for my personal use for different cars I had so far, but this uniball mod is the only and the first one that I have decided to offer to public. While I think we tried our best and did a good job, there is always a room for further development, so we are absolutely open for any kind of thoughts on improvement.

Yesterday, it was also my last day at work till next year, so I'll take time and reply to all your thoughts.

I too was shocked by the words “hate the handling”. Too strong for sure. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I remember my first day, bringing my 4C from a showroom, feeling so tense and driving it so respectful. It was cold day in March and roads were more or less still in "winter mode". I was driving for about an hour or two, trying to bond with the car, but I felt so unsure. I did a few hard accelerations and it felt so fast. Definitely the fastest car with 240hp I have ever driven. I was impressed with that, but trying to drive a bit faster through the corners with ESP (normal mode), I could hear the boost leaking and engine backing off power, even though I didn't really feel any oversteer or anything. I was waiting for a car to pass 200km to be able to switch it to "dynamic" and "race" mode and try it. After 200km, I switched to dynamic and started pushing it a bit, but it felt so numb to me, I had absolutely no idea how's the car gonna react. To get a bit of my driving confidence, I did a hard braking test on a a long straight from about 170km/h to almost full stop and car wandered left and right badly and I said to myself: "I can't imagine I'll ever drive this car fast". So I spend next few days mostly in dynamic mode, and after few day it was my first track day or actually more like AutoX with stock 4C. I also did an alignment day before, to make sure everything was in order. This was the first time I've really pushed the car with ESP off, trying to get to know the car, and lap times just weren't as good as I was hoping for. So I've tried to drive it smooth, aggressive, everything, but it just didn't feel right. I felt like I was driving a car with worn out bushes, steering rack and winter tires. So I started thinking what could I be doing wrong, trying to convince myself that maybe I just need to get to used to the car. But on the other hand I knew that I drove less sophisticated car (BMW Z3M) much faster on that track and that I just couldn't accept. Within a few weeks I went to another known track to me and this time I was disappointed even more. I was trying so hard to drive it as smooth as possible, but handling was awful. Absolutely no sign how close to the limit you are. Car just loosed it's tail when I started pushing it, brakes were fading out and the whole car felt "floaty". I hated it! I was banging my head, why did I had to go for an exotic car like this, even though I've read all the criticism about the handling. I said to my self: "I should have bought Cayman or Lotus, now I've just spend the money on something that's not what I though it would be". Strange feeling were overwhelming me, but I kept thinking and thinking about it and all my thoughts were telling me that there is no way that car with such specs (Double A-arms front, MacPherson rear, CF moncoque, 1000kg,) handles so poor. So, first I bough Jamie's front caster/camber plates, and car felt at least 50% better to drive than it was. Now front end went, where I pointed it, while before it was darting all over the road. Stock caster spec, on the track was OK, except steering wheel effort was to light for me and camber was too low. I was racking up kilometres driving around exploring the world and my 4C. Mostly in ESP off mode, I drove on the roads, and the rear end still wasn't up to my taste. So I changed stock tires for semislicks and grip was immediately much better, but it was the handling I didn't like, not the grip, so I didn't solve anything with that, only car achieved higher cornering G-forces, but the feeling of numbness was still there, now even more unpleasant because I still didn't trust the car, while speeds were even higher. I've also noticed that some people were talking about "rear steer" effect, which caught my attention. I've read pretty much all the information about it I could gather and I also talked to Jamie from Alfaworks, who told me that this rear steer problem is originating from rear arm bushings flex. It was hard to believe that just because of some rubber part in the suspension, handling could be bad. I've driven cars with worn out bushes but never felt so strange as 4C did. So, one day I was at home in the garage, looking at the rear suspension of the car trying to understand how camber and toe changes, when car squats. I grabbed the rear wheel and started to trying to twist it toe in/toe out. I was amazed how much the wheels moved. I immediately knew, that's not OK for handling and that maybe this is the source of problems that rear end feels so "floaty". So I went to do an alignment again and while car was on the alignment rack I did same test again, and now also the numbers on the alignment display confirmed that there is way to much of dynamic change in toe. Actually if you look carefully, you can see the movement not only at the wheels but also at the bushings. That was the so called "rear steer". I was looking into Jamie's solution, but the cost and procedures of sending the arms to Jamie, to have them machined were too high for me and the other thing that bothered me even more, was that only 1/2 rubber bushings in rear arms get replaced with uniball, so it would still be a compromise and still some "rear steer" effect would remain. I'm kind of person that doesn't like to go for a compromise, so I wanted both 2/2 changed, to make sure to get rid all of the unwanted play in it. So I went to a friend and we did the uniball bushing for the front part of the rear arm. Did the alignment again, checked the play in the bushes again and it was much better, but still not what I wanted. I went for a drive on the road and I immediately noticed more precise and direct response from the rear end. Exactly what I was missing. I was driving car like that for a few weeks, did a trackday in Romania and this was the first time I achieved a solid lap times and felt like I could drive the car more on the limit like ever before. It still wasn't perfect, but much better than stock. Within a few weeks I went to a friend again and we did also a uniball bushing for the rear part of the rear arm. So now I had both rubber bushings 2/2 replaced with uniballs, did the alignment again, test it again and there was practically zero play in the bushes and the rear wheels achieved. At the same time I also installed Jamie's front uniball bushings and Nitron NTR R3 coilovers. I went for a ride and while I didn't like the given factory coilover adjustments, I liked the feel and feedback that car gave me. It felt direct, sharp and very accurate. Just the way I like it. So within a few days I went to the same AutoX event I went first time and all the hard work paid for itself. Car felt fast, planted and predictable and lap times have proven it. My first victory in 4C! I was so happy that I didn't give up and insisted on searching for a solution. By that time I still haven't figured out all the damping settings of the new coilovers, so probably there was still some time left to be shaved off, but it was a solid run. I went to Slovakiraring few weeks later and played with damping settings a bit more this time and car handled OK, but couldn't say that I've mastered the track entirely, so it was not a perfect run, but I had decent lap times. After few weeks I went to another track day - Grobnik in Croatia, the one that bothered me the most. I achieved a very good lap times with my BMW Z3M, so my goal was to, drive about the same time with now lightly modded 4C. PR on that track with Z3M (heavily modded) was 1.44:595, and last time I drove stock 4C here was 1.52:546. Now that's 8s of a gap and going there to beat that time, while having the same horsepower (240hp), only changing the suspension parts, was unimaginable to me. I was preparing myself to this event a lot. My thoughts and doubts were killing me, honestly I just couldn't see, where I'll find that 8s. So the day before the event, I did the alignment again, checked all the tires, brake pads were now Ferodo DS UNO, set the damping and next day went to the track. I did a few laps and car felt right. I fine tuned the damping and started to chase the lap times. Within a few laps I was within the goal lap times and a few laps later I set up my PR. 1:43:420. That's 9s faster than first time here with stock 4C. Misson accomplished. I was happy, but as soon as I achieved that lap time I wanted more, but I knew that this day that was my max, as tires were starting to let go, track got crowded and lap times started to rise a again. So here I am, like every track addict is, hunger for more. :wink2:

Even Jamie states on his site that changing the rear suspension bushes is the single most effective change for improving the handling performance of the 4C. No reason to think he’s wrong. I’ve been contemplating the purchase of Jamies’ suspension arm and bush combination but, combined with postage to this part of the world, it was an extravagance that was hard to justify. Rudis’ alternative looks a more cost effective solution for me. I have a local shop that can do the work, so worth the try.
Exactly!

Bottom line, every street car is a compromise. The 4C is no different.
It’s genesis involved a trade-off between cost, manufacturing simplicity, and suitability for purpose
I agree, it's just hard for me to make compromise, so I might be more performance biased and it's hard for me to understand the aspects of other "normal" users. I'd be willing to drive with Radical everday. :grin2:

As has been alluded to, parts of our suspension are more road-oriented than track-focused. The rubber bushings are fine for street use, and as Jamie has pointed out earlier, are likely the better solution for the majority of drivers. And they may last longer. Perhaps (sheer guess on my part) they also isolate the tub better from the road (NVH and forces).
Rubber bushings are OK for those who drive their cars on NORMAL mode and DYNAMIC mode and don't tend to put on more grippy tires and suspensions. I'd say, bone stock car for joy riders, cruisers is OK with rubber bushings. Probably won't ever even notice the problems were're arguing about, so no need to change to uniballs.

But for those relative few owners who want to explore the limits of their car’s performance, however, predictability is key. Perhaps even vital. You can’t get that from essentially a randomly variable alignment like the stock rubber part creates. To those owners, that’s worth sacrificing some comfort, parts longevity, and cost for. Alfa created a fine car, but for those people it is lacking in many areas, and they are right in saying so.
Couldn't have told it better. For those, exploring the limits of the 4C, spending majority of their time on RACE mode, change of rubber bushings to uniballs is a must. It's impossible to drive car on the limit in stock form. It will surprise you, trust me. It did surprise me on the track and many others too. It's snappy, unpredictable and not pleasant to drive. I understand that here is many of us who would like to be the fastest and best drivers, I was trying to find a problem within my driving too as I've said it before, but this once, it trully was a problem in a car not a driver. Even F1 champion wouldn't be a champion without a perfect car. Maybe some 40 years ago, but now it's the car that's wining not the driver and it goes the same for 4C. You can't be fast if car doesn't handle like it should.

Can you track a stock 4C? Absolutely, and it is a blast.
You can track every car and have fun. I went to Nurburging with my family cruiser, and I had a good time too, but if you're in a search of faster lap times, than stock 4C won't take you very far.

Right now, the movement in the rear warns us street drivers off well before we get into too much trouble at speed. Elliminating that might just create the circumstances for a few trouser-soiling moments as the tighter car will now let go more dramatically when it does (if we ever get to that limit).
This is the part I don't agree. If you're driving at the limit and car is already getting "floaty", then you are already pushing it and it's time to seriously think about switching rubber bushings to uniballs. After the mod, you'll still be able to enjoy your 4C on cruise rides like you did, it won't be like a trash can to drive and noisy, but once you'll feel the urge to give it a run, you'll be rewarded with precise and predictable handling. It will be a purist car then, now it's just a bad compromise.

As you mention this is one of my favorite mods and we have been supplying the complete arm for around 2 years now and it does work really well. What you have not factored in to the equation is tyres, the standard suspension works really well with standard tyres once you change for stickier tyres the force the tyres exert on the bushes increases and so they turn more and that is where the problems start to show up.
I did all the explanations in previous post in thread of my 4C, so I didn't want to go all over again here in this thread, but I guess I just did it.

As Gale mentions there is no significant change in ride harshness and with our conversion (I am sure that its the same with Gales) the bushes will last for a significant time we use a bush out of a production car and it is designed for a life of 100,000 miles
I haven't noticed any difference in NVH in having your Alfaworkshop 1/2 uniballs (front part of rear arm only) or our solution 2/2 uniballs (both at the rear arms), except handling with 2/2 was even better than 1/2. I believe, that the reason you went for 1/2 uniballs is that there is no serial production uniball to fit into the rear part of the rear arm and even for the front you have to machine the arms to fit in serial production uniball. We dealed with that by designing a completely new uniball. It's also heat treated and rubber sealed, so it should last for a while, but like I said, it depends of the driving conditions. On the track it should last forever, while rubber bushings could die within a few laps with slick tires on the car. On the road, uniballs will suffer more than rubber bushings, so life span will be shorter. How much? I don't know. So far I've driven about 10.000km on the road and about 3-4 trackday and everything is still fine. I also doubt that serial production uniballs are that much better, as manufacturers are looking for a cost effective solution, so they probably don't spend extra money to put in the most hardcore uniballs they can get, so 100.000 miles seems a lot to me, even for a serial production part, but we'll see.

Jamie, I was looking into your solution of ordering pair of arms with 1/2 uniball from your shop too. I even wrote you about the issue regarding the handling and the chase of that 8s I've mentioned before, and I thank you for pointing me in right direction. I'm still using your camber/caster plates which are perfect. I appreciate that, so that's why I didn't bother designing front uniballs, but ordered them from you too. I'll probably have done another version by myself once these wear out, but I'll try to make it simpler, as I have seen, you've put a lot of effort in designing them. I have also decided to find my own solution for the rear and have 2/2 rear arm uniballs replaced and being able to install them by myself. I hope you don't find our product as a knock off of yours, as you probably know, that there is not many solutions for the rear uniball conversion available and that we are probably the only one that can make uniballs in this dimension, unless you're willing to order 1000 parts or more from a serial production company. It's pretty much handwork here. Thank you for all the enthusiastic effort you've put into 4C, I'm glad we have developers like you. Me, I'm more driver than a developer, I like modding the car, but I prefer to drive it. :wink2:

Overall, upgrading the rear uni-balls is cheap, it doesn't harm the comfort, it clearly removes any change in rear wheels geometry so I believe it is a good thing to do (more like a must). If not at least everyone should check and adjust the front and rear geometry.
I agree. Unfortunately, you cannot change front alignment much (only toe), without completely modifying the front end. So also camber/caster plates are pretty much essential in my opinion. Having perfectly adjusted rear end in static position and then running rubber bushings is useless, because dynamic changes are too big so when you drive hard the specw are far from what they have been set, so uniballs are like you said, pretty much a must.

+1. The first few times I took the 4C onto the track, it was all stock (including P-Zero ARs) and was a heck of a lot of fun. The car cornered at ~1G. Then I put on Bridgestone RE-71Rs and the cornering jumped to ~1.2G. The characteristic of delayed set (I'd describe it as a "jiggle") on turn-in really became apparent. Add to this the difficulty of maintaining position with the stock seats and 3 point . . . . The car was faster, but it wasn't as fun. If there is such a thing as a car being "tuned" to a particular tire or grip level, it seems like the stock 4C is. More so than any other car I've taken on track.

I've adjusted with driver technique thus far (just hyper-focused on smoothness during turn-in). Thinking about doing this mod or something similar. Surprising to me that Powerflex offers a bushing for our engine mounts but not for these lower arms. Jamie, ever think about just selling bushings rather than complete arms?
I agree. With better tires you add grip, but handling get's worse. I too, haven't noticed any other car before, that would be so sensitive to changes. Even when I'm doing fine alignment, or fine tuning of the damping on 4C, I can feel difference in the drive, while other cars, felt much less sensitive to me if I was playing with the setup.

I am very interested in user reports...may consider these myself after the car comes out of Winter hibernation. I agree with the big issue on Jamies.....requires shipping the entire arm. Should be cheaper shipping with the uniballs. Hopefully users will tell us if the noise level goes up when using them. That is my main concern. I have had suspension on other cars that telegraphed every pebble it passed over and that gets a bit much unless you are using the car solely as a race car.
I agree. We should wait for more reports that will follow.

I have Jamie's rear arms as well as the bushes up front. I had expected the sound difference to stock parts to be much bigger, now it's really a non issue.
I have similar setup, expect running both rear arm bushing as uniballs. No major NVH increase.

The better this 4C handles on the track will only increase the betterment of all owners and the 4C itself.
Absolutely!
 
#21 ·
On a bumpy road you will not feel much difference if at all. The vibrations go through the shocks and because the rear arms are quite long they don't generate a lot of movement (rotation) in the bushings area. Basically, if the wheel goes up and down 1 cm the arm will rotate just a few degrees around the steel bushes.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Even Jamie states on his site that changing the rear suspension bushes is the single most effective change for improving the handling performance of the 4C. No reason to think he’s wrong. I’ve been contemplating the purchase of Jamies’ suspension arm and bush combination but, combined with postage to this part of the world, it was an extravagance that was hard to justify. Rudis’ alternative looks a more cost effective solution for me. I have a local shop that can do the work, so worth the try.
 
#24 ·
I can see everyone's points.
Bottom line, every street car is a compromise. The 4C is no different.
It’s genesis involved a trade-off between cost, manufacturing simplicity, and suitability for purpose.
That applies to the stock tires (the most obvious example), and extends to other components like shocks, and these connections.

As has been alluded to, parts of our suspension are more road-oriented than track-focused. The rubber bushings are fine for street use, and as Jamie has pointed out earlier, are likely the better solution for the majority of drivers. And they may last longer. Perhaps (sheer guess on my part) they also isolate the tub better from the road (NVH and forces).

But for those relative few owners who want to explore the limits of their car’s performance, however, predictability is key. Perhaps even vital. You can’t get that from essentially a randomly variable alignment like the stock rubber part creates. To those owners, that’s worth sacrificing some comfort, parts longevity, and cost for. Alfa created a fine car, but for those people it is lacking in many areas, and they are right in saying so.

Can you track a stock 4C? Absolutely, and it is a blast.
But there are a lot of things you can do to make it go faster, and be safer and return more consistent times.
Do we all need to do this mod? No. It probably isn’t even appropriate for a lot of us. Right now, the movement in the rear warns us street drivers off well before we get into too much trouble at speed. Elliminating that might just create the circumstances for a few trouser-soiling moments as the tighter car will now let go more dramatically when it does (if we ever get to that limit).

Me, yeah, I’m in. Probably wait until closer to spring, but I think I’ll get enough track use from the car to make these a suitable investment.

I’m really glad that we have such innovative, enthusiastic people on the board, developing alternatives for our cars and sharing them.
 
#25 · (Edited)
As you mention this is one of my favorite mods and we have been supplying the complete arm for around 2 years now and it does work really well. What you have not factored in to the equation is tyres, the standard suspension works really well with standard tyres once you change for stickier tyres the force the tyres exert on the bushes increases and so they turn more and that is where the problems start to show up.

As Gale mentions there is no significant change in ride harshness and with our conversion (I am sure that its the same with Gales) the bushes will last for a significant time we use a bush out of a production car and it is designed for a life of 100,000 miles
 
#27 ·
What you have not factored in to the equation is tyres, the standard suspension works really well with standard tyres once you change for stickier tyres the force the tyres exert on the bushes increases and so they turn more and that is where the problems start to show up.
+1. The first few times I took the 4C onto the track, it was all stock (including P-Zero ARs) and was a heck of a lot of fun. The car cornered at ~1G. Then I put on Bridgestone RE-71Rs and the cornering jumped to ~1.2G. The characteristic of delayed set (I'd describe it as a "jiggle") on turn-in really became apparent. Add to this the difficulty of maintaining position with the stock seats and 3 point . . . . The car was faster, but it wasn't as fun. If there is such a thing as a car being "tuned" to a particular tire or grip level, it seems like the stock 4C is. More so than any other car I've taken on track.

I've adjusted with driver technique thus far (just hyper-focused on smoothness during turn-in). Thinking about doing this mod or something similar. Surprising to me that Powerflex offers a bushing for our engine mounts but not for these lower arms. Jamie, ever think about just selling bushings rather than complete arms?
 
#26 ·
Another thing to consider with rear uni-balls:In genereal when alfa owners buy them they also change the rear geometry (camber and toe) in the same time.

I first changed the geometry on the rear and drove a few month like that (including on the racetrack) --> After that, I installed the rear uni-balls but did not make any change on the geometry because it was already maxed out --> After upgrading to uni-balls i didn't feel much difference like when I changed the geometry (again, I have to consider that the track conditions were not quite optimal but not very bad either).

As Jamie points out: the tires are also a factor to consider and in the future I will go with wider tires so the uni-balls should have more impact on driving.
Overall, upgrading the rear uni-balls is cheap, it doesn't harm the comfort, it clearly removes any change in rear wheels geometry so I believe it is a good thing to do (more like a must). If not at least everyone should check and adjust the front and rear geometry.
 
#28 ·
I am very interested in user reports...may consider these myself after the car comes out of Winter hibernation. I agree with the big issue on Jamies.....requires shipping the entire arm. Should be cheaper shipping with the uniballs. Hopefully users will tell us if the noise level goes up when using them. That is my main concern. I have had suspension on other cars that telegraphed every pebble it passed over and that gets a bit much unless you are using the car solely as a race car.
 
#31 ·
I am not a track junkie, but I do appreciate the efforts of people on this forum offering upgrades that have been tested. I would like to believe that any supposed track car "out of the box" stock could be improved with some mods. Like 4Canada stated .... the car as it arrives to the general public is essentially a compromise between upper management, engineers and bean counters.

The better this 4C handles on the track will only increase the betterment of all owners and the 4C itself.
 
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#33 ·
Gale...

I can understand (sort of) what you are talking about. I have more track time on my OEM tires which I have gotten quite comfortable being able to drive aggressively with those tires. Yes, I have had the car step out, but I can usually feel when i'm close (plus the tires are VERY chatty). I have only had a few sessions with Pirelli Trofeo R. However as this was my first time with those tires on track, I defiantly didn't feel that comfortable and never really knew when they were going to let go. I definitely need more time with the tires. Now for driving feel... Sometimes when I'm going around on track the car will plant very nicely coming out of the corners and you can really hammer the gas. The balance and stability is quite amazing! Where I definitely don't feel the car planting is when the surface is less than perfect or off camber corners. I wonder if this is the floatiness that you are referring too. The Ohlin's I installed DEFINATELY helped deal with any bumps, so I think that is a start....

Now for understanding, what is the difference between your bushing replacements versus Jamie's? I don't understand the 1/2 vs 2/2 differences you talk about. In the rear A-arm, there are 2 bushings and both should be replaced... As I said, the Ohlin's helped, but sometimes I don't really feel the car solidly plant with the Trofeo vs OEM. I will hopefully will be able to start using the Semi-Slicks at my HPDE (the organization I use for education restricts R compound tires to the "better" drivers, which I hope to be at by mid next year). So I completely understand the desire to get more solid connections points for the suspension.

What do you feel the importance is of doing all A-Arms front & back? Seems like it would be a massive expense to do this (about 2500 GBP) which is damn close to the price of the Ohlin's. I guess I could get just the front bushings (500 GBP) and have my race shop do it, but Jamie doesn't sell the rear bushings only....

Thanks for your hard work! I think the more track time we all get on this car, we will be able to come up with some truely outstanding modifications.

-DrPyro
 
#34 ·
Now for understanding, what is the difference between your bushing replacements versus Jamie's? I don't understand the 1/2 vs 2/2 differences you talk about.
The front bushing of the arm is a big rubber one that act as a passive rear wheel steering. Under load it compresses and while you lose a bit of negative camber you "gain" a bit of countersteer. In theory this is not a bad thing, newer GT3 and Turbo Porsches as well as the latest spec Aventador uses rear wheel steer.

Problem is that when you actually lose grip (and load) the rear steer neutralizes, then you regain grip and the whole process starts all over again. This is what puts the "Angst" in the "Angst Kurve" if you ask me.

The rear bushing, while in theory you should gain a bit of control having it exchanged, I think quite few of us would actually feel the difference. The amount of rubber is tiny compared to the front one and the steering effect and lost negative camber are probably hard even to measure.
 
#42 ·
Something that came to mind on this bushings issue....
ALFA seems to have engineered in passive rear wheel steering that is matched to the stock tires. That may have been done as a safety "buffer". I can understand the advantage of the bushings for stickier tires or different size combinations but it seems that it would give up that buffer. Not saying this is good or bad but certainly as some have mentioned...may not have the feedback safety factor that the stock bushings/tires have. I do think that those bushings are a good idea though once you do a major tire upgrade.
 
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