I'm glad that we have gathered so many different thoughts here. I'll try to be as objective as possible in further conversation.
We (mostly me, my father and some help) have made quite a few custom parts for my personal use for different cars I had so far, but this uniball mod is the only and the first one that I have decided to offer to public. While I think we tried our best and did a good job, there is always a room for further development, so we are absolutely open for any kind of thoughts on improvement.
Yesterday, it was also my last day at work till next year, so I'll take time and reply to all your thoughts.
I too was shocked by the words “hate the handling”. Too strong for sure. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I remember my first day, bringing my 4C from a showroom, feeling so tense and driving it so respectful. It was cold day in March and roads were more or less still in "winter mode". I was driving for about an hour or two, trying to bond with the car, but I felt so unsure. I did a few hard accelerations and it felt so fast. Definitely the fastest car with 240hp I have ever driven. I was impressed with that, but trying to drive a bit faster through the corners with ESP (normal mode), I could hear the boost leaking and engine backing off power, even though I didn't really feel any oversteer or anything. I was waiting for a car to pass 200km to be able to switch it to "dynamic" and "race" mode and try it. After 200km, I switched to dynamic and started pushing it a bit, but it felt so numb to me, I had absolutely no idea how's the car gonna react. To get a bit of my driving confidence, I did a hard braking test on a a long straight from about 170km/h to almost full stop and car wandered left and right badly and I said to myself: "I can't imagine I'll ever drive this car fast". So I spend next few days mostly in dynamic mode, and after few day it was my first track day or actually more like AutoX with stock 4C. I also did an alignment day before, to make sure everything was in order. This was the first time I've really pushed the car with ESP off, trying to get to know the car, and lap times just weren't as good as I was hoping for. So I've tried to drive it smooth, aggressive, everything, but it just didn't feel right. I felt like I was driving a car with worn out bushes, steering rack and winter tires. So I started thinking what could I be doing wrong, trying to convince myself that maybe I just need to get to used to the car. But on the other hand I knew that I drove less sophisticated car (BMW Z3M) much faster on that track and that I just couldn't accept. Within a few weeks I went to another known track to me and this time I was disappointed even more. I was trying so hard to drive it as smooth as possible, but handling was awful. Absolutely no sign how close to the limit you are. Car just loosed it's tail when I started pushing it, brakes were fading out and the whole car felt "floaty". I hated it! I was banging my head, why did I had to go for an exotic car like this, even though I've read all the criticism about the handling. I said to my self: "I should have bought Cayman or Lotus, now I've just spend the money on something that's not what I though it would be". Strange feeling were overwhelming me, but I kept thinking and thinking about it and all my thoughts were telling me that there is no way that car with such specs (Double A-arms front, MacPherson rear, CF moncoque, 1000kg,) handles so poor. So, first I bough Jamie's front caster/camber plates, and car felt at least 50% better to drive than it was. Now front end went, where I pointed it, while before it was darting all over the road. Stock caster spec, on the track was OK, except steering wheel effort was to light for me and camber was too low. I was racking up kilometres driving around exploring the world and my 4C. Mostly in ESP off mode, I drove on the roads, and the rear end still wasn't up to my taste. So I changed stock tires for semislicks and grip was immediately much better, but it was the handling I didn't like, not the grip, so I didn't solve anything with that, only car achieved higher cornering G-forces, but the feeling of numbness was still there, now even more unpleasant because I still didn't trust the car, while speeds were even higher. I've also noticed that some people were talking about "rear steer" effect, which caught my attention. I've read pretty much all the information about it I could gather and I also talked to Jamie from Alfaworks, who told me that this rear steer problem is originating from rear arm bushings flex. It was hard to believe that just because of some rubber part in the suspension, handling could be bad. I've driven cars with worn out bushes but never felt so strange as 4C did. So, one day I was at home in the garage, looking at the rear suspension of the car trying to understand how camber and toe changes, when car squats. I grabbed the rear wheel and started to trying to twist it toe in/toe out. I was amazed how much the wheels moved. I immediately knew, that's not OK for handling and that maybe this is the source of problems that rear end feels so "floaty". So I went to do an alignment again and while car was on the alignment rack I did same test again, and now also the numbers on the alignment display confirmed that there is way to much of dynamic change in toe. Actually if you look carefully, you can see the movement not only at the wheels but also at the bushings. That was the so called "rear steer". I was looking into Jamie's solution, but the cost and procedures of sending the arms to Jamie, to have them machined were too high for me and the other thing that bothered me even more, was that only 1/2 rubber bushings in rear arms get replaced with uniball, so it would still be a compromise and still some "rear steer" effect would remain. I'm kind of person that doesn't like to go for a compromise, so I wanted both 2/2 changed, to make sure to get rid all of the unwanted play in it. So I went to a friend and we did the uniball bushing for the front part of the rear arm. Did the alignment again, checked the play in the bushes again and it was much better, but still not what I wanted. I went for a drive on the road and I immediately noticed more precise and direct response from the rear end. Exactly what I was missing. I was driving car like that for a few weeks, did a trackday in Romania and this was the first time I achieved a solid lap times and felt like I could drive the car more on the limit like ever before. It still wasn't perfect, but much better than stock. Within a few weeks I went to a friend again and we did also a uniball bushing for the rear part of the rear arm. So now I had both rubber bushings 2/2 replaced with uniballs, did the alignment again, test it again and there was practically zero play in the bushes and the rear wheels achieved. At the same time I also installed Jamie's front uniball bushings and Nitron NTR R3 coilovers. I went for a ride and while I didn't like the given factory coilover adjustments, I liked the feel and feedback that car gave me. It felt direct, sharp and very accurate. Just the way I like it. So within a few days I went to the same AutoX event I went first time and all the hard work paid for itself. Car felt fast, planted and predictable and lap times have proven it. My first victory in 4C! I was so happy that I didn't give up and insisted on searching for a solution. By that time I still haven't figured out all the damping settings of the new coilovers, so probably there was still some time left to be shaved off, but it was a solid run. I went to Slovakiraring few weeks later and played with damping settings a bit more this time and car handled OK, but couldn't say that I've mastered the track entirely, so it was not a perfect run, but I had decent lap times. After few weeks I went to another track day - Grobnik in Croatia, the one that bothered me the most. I achieved a very good lap times with my BMW Z3M, so my goal was to, drive about the same time with now lightly modded 4C. PR on that track with Z3M (heavily modded) was 1.44:595, and last time I drove stock 4C here was 1.52:546. Now that's 8s of a gap and going there to beat that time, while having the same horsepower (240hp), only changing the suspension parts, was unimaginable to me. I was preparing myself to this event a lot. My thoughts and doubts were killing me, honestly I just couldn't see, where I'll find that 8s. So the day before the event, I did the alignment again, checked all the tires, brake pads were now Ferodo DS UNO, set the damping and next day went to the track. I did a few laps and car felt right. I fine tuned the damping and started to chase the lap times. Within a few laps I was within the goal lap times and a few laps later I set up my PR. 1:43:420. That's 9s faster than first time here with stock 4C. Misson accomplished. I was happy, but as soon as I achieved that lap time I wanted more, but I knew that this day that was my max, as tires were starting to let go, track got crowded and lap times started to rise a again. So here I am, like every track addict is, hunger for more. :wink2:
Even Jamie states on his site that changing the rear suspension bushes is the single most effective change for improving the handling performance of the 4C. No reason to think he’s wrong. I’ve been contemplating the purchase of Jamies’ suspension arm and bush combination but, combined with postage to this part of the world, it was an extravagance that was hard to justify. Rudis’ alternative looks a more cost effective solution for me. I have a local shop that can do the work, so worth the try.
Exactly!
Bottom line, every street car is a compromise. The 4C is no different.
It’s genesis involved a trade-off between cost, manufacturing simplicity, and suitability for purpose
I agree, it's just hard for me to make compromise, so I might be more performance biased and it's hard for me to understand the aspects of other "normal" users. I'd be willing to drive with Radical everday. :grin2:
As has been alluded to, parts of our suspension are more road-oriented than track-focused. The rubber bushings are fine for street use, and as Jamie has pointed out earlier, are likely the better solution for the majority of drivers. And they may last longer. Perhaps (sheer guess on my part) they also isolate the tub better from the road (NVH and forces).
Rubber bushings are OK for those who drive their cars on NORMAL mode and DYNAMIC mode and don't tend to put on more grippy tires and suspensions. I'd say, bone stock car for joy riders, cruisers is OK with rubber bushings. Probably won't ever even notice the problems were're arguing about, so no need to change to uniballs.
But for those relative few owners who want to explore the limits of their car’s performance, however, predictability is key. Perhaps even vital. You can’t get that from essentially a randomly variable alignment like the stock rubber part creates. To those owners, that’s worth sacrificing some comfort, parts longevity, and cost for. Alfa created a fine car, but for those people it is lacking in many areas, and they are right in saying so.
Couldn't have told it better. For those, exploring the limits of the 4C, spending majority of their time on RACE mode, change of rubber bushings to uniballs is a must. It's impossible to drive car on the limit in stock form. It will surprise you, trust me. It did surprise me on the track and many others too. It's snappy, unpredictable and not pleasant to drive. I understand that here is many of us who would like to be the fastest and best drivers, I was trying to find a problem within my driving too as I've said it before, but this once, it trully was a problem in a car not a driver. Even F1 champion wouldn't be a champion without a perfect car. Maybe some 40 years ago, but now it's the car that's wining not the driver and it goes the same for 4C. You can't be fast if car doesn't handle like it should.
Can you track a stock 4C? Absolutely, and it is a blast.
You can track every car and have fun. I went to Nurburging with my family cruiser, and I had a good time too, but if you're in a search of faster lap times, than stock 4C won't take you very far.
Right now, the movement in the rear warns us street drivers off well before we get into too much trouble at speed. Elliminating that might just create the circumstances for a few trouser-soiling moments as the tighter car will now let go more dramatically when it does (if we ever get to that limit).
This is the part I don't agree. If you're driving at the limit and car is already getting "floaty", then you are already pushing it and it's time to seriously think about switching rubber bushings to uniballs. After the mod, you'll still be able to enjoy your 4C on cruise rides like you did, it won't be like a trash can to drive and noisy, but once you'll feel the urge to give it a run, you'll be rewarded with precise and predictable handling. It will be a purist car then, now it's just a bad compromise.
As you mention this is one of my favorite mods and we have been supplying the complete arm for around 2 years now and it does work really well. What you have not factored in to the equation is tyres, the standard suspension works really well with standard tyres once you change for stickier tyres the force the tyres exert on the bushes increases and so they turn more and that is where the problems start to show up.
I did all the explanations in previous post in thread of my 4C, so I didn't want to go all over again here in this thread, but I guess I just did it.
As Gale mentions there is no significant change in ride harshness and with our conversion (I am sure that its the same with Gales) the bushes will last for a significant time we use a bush out of a production car and it is designed for a life of 100,000 miles
I haven't noticed any difference in NVH in having your Alfaworkshop 1/2 uniballs (front part of rear arm only) or our solution 2/2 uniballs (both at the rear arms), except handling with 2/2 was even better than 1/2. I believe, that the reason you went for 1/2 uniballs is that there is no serial production uniball to fit into the rear part of the rear arm and even for the front you have to machine the arms to fit in serial production uniball. We dealed with that by designing a completely new uniball. It's also heat treated and rubber sealed, so it should last for a while, but like I said, it depends of the driving conditions. On the track it should last forever, while rubber bushings could die within a few laps with slick tires on the car. On the road, uniballs will suffer more than rubber bushings, so life span will be shorter. How much? I don't know. So far I've driven about 10.000km on the road and about 3-4 trackday and everything is still fine. I also doubt that serial production uniballs are that much better, as manufacturers are looking for a cost effective solution, so they probably don't spend extra money to put in the most hardcore uniballs they can get, so 100.000 miles seems a lot to me, even for a serial production part, but we'll see.
Jamie, I was looking into your solution of ordering pair of arms with 1/2 uniball from your shop too. I even wrote you about the issue regarding the handling and the chase of that 8s I've mentioned before, and I thank you for pointing me in right direction. I'm still using your camber/caster plates which are perfect. I appreciate that, so that's why I didn't bother designing front uniballs, but ordered them from you too. I'll probably have done another version by myself once these wear out, but I'll try to make it simpler, as I have seen, you've put a lot of effort in designing them. I have also decided to find my own solution for the rear and have 2/2 rear arm uniballs replaced and being able to install them by myself. I hope you don't find our product as a knock off of yours, as you probably know, that there is not many solutions for the rear uniball conversion available and that we are probably the only one that can make uniballs in this dimension, unless you're willing to order 1000 parts or more from a serial production company. It's pretty much handwork here. Thank you for all the enthusiastic effort you've put into 4C, I'm glad we have developers like you. Me, I'm more driver than a developer, I like modding the car, but I prefer to drive it. :wink2:
Overall, upgrading the rear uni-balls is cheap, it doesn't harm the comfort, it clearly removes any change in rear wheels geometry so I believe it is a good thing to do (more like a must). If not at least everyone should check and adjust the front and rear geometry.
I agree. Unfortunately, you cannot change front alignment much (only toe), without completely modifying the front end. So also camber/caster plates are pretty much essential in my opinion. Having perfectly adjusted rear end in static position and then running rubber bushings is useless, because dynamic changes are too big so when you drive hard the specw are far from what they have been set, so uniballs are like you said, pretty much a must.
+1. The first few times I took the 4C onto the track, it was all stock (including P-Zero ARs) and was a heck of a lot of fun. The car cornered at ~1G. Then I put on Bridgestone RE-71Rs and the cornering jumped to ~1.2G. The characteristic of delayed set (I'd describe it as a "jiggle") on turn-in really became apparent. Add to this the difficulty of maintaining position with the stock seats and 3 point . . . . The car was faster, but it wasn't as fun. If there is such a thing as a car being "tuned" to a particular tire or grip level, it seems like the stock 4C is. More so than any other car I've taken on track.
I've adjusted with driver technique thus far (just hyper-focused on smoothness during turn-in). Thinking about doing this mod or something similar. Surprising to me that Powerflex offers a bushing for our engine mounts but not for these lower arms. Jamie, ever think about just selling bushings rather than complete arms?
I agree. With better tires you add grip, but handling get's worse. I too, haven't noticed any other car before, that would be so sensitive to changes. Even when I'm doing fine alignment, or fine tuning of the damping on 4C, I can feel difference in the drive, while other cars, felt much less sensitive to me if I was playing with the setup.
I am very interested in user reports...may consider these myself after the car comes out of Winter hibernation. I agree with the big issue on Jamies.....requires shipping the entire arm. Should be cheaper shipping with the uniballs. Hopefully users will tell us if the noise level goes up when using them. That is my main concern. I have had suspension on other cars that telegraphed every pebble it passed over and that gets a bit much unless you are using the car solely as a race car.
I agree. We should wait for more reports that will follow.
I have Jamie's rear arms as well as the bushes up front. I had expected the sound difference to stock parts to be much bigger, now it's really a non issue.
I have similar setup, expect running both rear arm bushing as uniballs. No major NVH increase.
The better this 4C handles on the track will only increase the betterment of all owners and the 4C itself.
Absolutely!