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Discussion Starter #42
As mentioned earlier in this thread, I had virtually the same setup as Mankind. Pogea Clone and hoses, K&N Filter, Madness Exhaust. Just changed oil for 2nd time. First was at 3600 miles and this one is at 7300 miles, so this oil saw 3700 miles. The only out of whack reading was the Silicon. Everything I have read suggests this is not uncommon for new engines due to the gasket sealers that can be used.

My fuel contamination was <2.0 which is great. I was worried it may have been higher. Anyway, official report attached.
I think you're correct re silicon. How do you like your setup with the clone? Have you tried launch mode yet?
 

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Mankind, I changed from the Pogea Stage 1 to the EC Stage 2 when it became available a few weeks ago. I also bought the Auterra tool so I can measure performance. Initial impressions without verification using Auterra are positive. The Pogea was not as smooth at part throttle and had "holes" in the feel of acceleration. The Pogea was also much more drastic and wild at full throttle from a stop. It would bark the tires in the 1-2 shift in Dynamic but it seemed to drop off power in the upper band/speed. The EC is much smoother and balanced and the power seems to go on longer. My local back road is under construction so I have to find another place for performance testing. I will publish my Auterra results soon.
 

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I never had good experience with K&N air filters. The oil on the filter gets into the MAF sensor and coats it, sending incorrect air/fuel measurement to the ECU and causes all sorts of issues. I cleaned the intake hose and MAF and they were oily and filthy inside. Used in my 164 before and failed smog test until I removed it, then the car passed with flying colors. I have never used K&N since.
 

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I never had good experience with K&N air filters. The oil on the filter gets into the MAF sensor and coats it, sending incorrect air/fuel measurement to the ECU and causes all sorts of issues. I cleaned the intake hose and MAF and they were oily and filthy inside. Used in my 164 before and failed smog test until I removed it, then the car passed with flying colors. I have never used K&N since.
Sounds like over-oiled to me.
Thousands of us use them without issues, you know!
:wink2:

But I prefer the idea of the sprint. Much easier to take that off, clean it with air, and put right back on instead of having to solvent-wash the filter, let it dry, and then re-apply the oil first.
 

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I never had good experience with K&N air filters. The oil on the filter gets into the MAF sensor and coats it, sending incorrect air/fuel measurement to the ECU and causes all sorts of issues. I cleaned the intake hose and MAF and they were oily and filthy inside. Used in my 164 before and failed smog test until I removed it, then the car passed with flying colors. I have never used K&N since.
I was reading about this issue on Eurocompulsion sales page for the Sprint filter. This is why they don't sell K&N to fit the 4C. Interestingly, Madness sells and recommends the K&N in the 4C for improved performance.
 

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Sounds like over-oiled to me.
Thousands of us use them without issues, you know!
:wink2:

But I prefer the idea of the sprint. Much easier to take that off, clean it with air, and put right back on instead of having to solvent-wash the filter, let it dry, and then re-apply the oil first.
Ha ha! Sorry. I just don't look at having to jack up the car, remove the wheel, remove the inner fender liner, just to get to the filter being EASY!
 

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Ha ha! Sorry. I just don't look at having to jack up the car, remove the wheel, remove the inner fender liner, just to get to the filter being EASY!
Fair comment.

But it is still easier to do the air-cleaning than to keep the car jacked up for 24 hours while you wash, dry and re-oil the K&N or BMC filter. Or drop the car and put it up again a day later.

Having done it once now, I think you MIGHT even be able to change the filter with the wheel attached and the car on the ground. There is only one fastener holding the liner in that area, and enough room below to drop the filter - JUST. But it would involve lots of very tight space and contortions.

Either way, the filter has to either be changed (stock, disposable kind) or cleaned at regular intervals. Whether you have a shop do it, or DIY, the process isn't any different. I just hate having the car parked for a day while you do the oiled-filter-shuffle. As was suggested previously in another thread, having a second oilable filter is a good option. But that gets expensive too, considering it is only saving you one day every year or two!
 

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I never had good experience with K&N air filters. The oil on the filter gets into the MAF sensor and coats it, sending incorrect air/fuel measurement to the ECU and causes all sorts of issues. I cleaned the intake hose and MAF and they were oily and filthy inside. Used in my 164 before and failed smog test until I removed it, then the car passed with flying colors. I have never used K&N since.
As other have alluded to, this is usually more about "user error" than MAF sensor sensitivity. I've used K&N's in multiple cars (normal everyday cars and specialty cars as well) and have never had any issues.

With that said, I also read about "MAF issues" before ever trying one. So, I made sure I knew what properly oiled vs over oiled looked like by asking several different friends and techs to show me. Once I understood that, well things worked the way they were supposed to.
 

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Fair comment.

But it is still easier to do the air-cleaning than to keep the car jacked up for 24 hours while you wash, dry and re-oil the K&N or BMC filter. Or drop the car and put it up again a day later...

...As was suggested previously in another thread, having a second oilable filter is a good option. But that gets expensive too, considering it is only saving you one day every year or two!
Having a car jacked up for 24 hours is just silly (and I'd argue slightly risky...). The reality is, get a second filter and you are set. These things are way cheap on Amazon. Not sure about you guys, but my time on turning maintenance is way more of value to me than a one time cost of an additional $60 bucks for an extra filter. Also, it's just easier to remember to swap it out in sequence with your oil changes. You then wash and air dry at leisure.
 

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Hello all,
I know this thread is a little stale but has there been a solution for this? I have discovered the same results ~5% fuel dilution with my oil analysis on my 2018 Coupe. Oil analysis results attached.

Lengthy but detailed post warning

We may believe a little extra fuel in the oil may be okay now because we don’t see any adverse effects, but over time, it’s not - this will create accelerated wear of critical engine components due to the reduced viscosity of the oil and I’m not sure if this engine will have the same longevity as others in market today. The engines likely run rich, due to the additional fuel in oil as confirmed by others taking oil analysis samples. I’ll explain my maintenance and driving modes...

My first oil change was around 4,000 miles. I went from factory fill to Mobil 1 European Formula 0W-40. I’m an engineer for Mobil and wanted to use their oil analysis program. The 0W-40 goes against the OEM recommendation of 5W-40 but you’ll get the added benefit of low temperature pump-ability while still maintaining proper viscosity at operating temperatures. The 2nd oil change was after 4,200 miles and this was my first oil analysis using Mobil’s program. I took the sample from the drain plug after letting some of the oil run off. When the results came in, the fuel dilution was 4.79%. It raised my eyebrows but I actually ignored it at the time because I didn’t think anything could be wrong (and didn’t want anything to to be wrong) with my engine, basically a new car. After an additional 1,003 miles on the new volume of oil, I sampled again, this time using a vacuum pump and 1/4” refrigeration tube from the dipstick while the engine was running after a drive. These results yielded an alert for 5.11% fuel dilution and an alert on the viscosity, due to the fuel dilution. ExxonMobil’s Mobil Serv oil analysis has the caution set at viscosity +/- 5% and an alert at +/- 10%.

My driving mode varies between natural and dynamic. All of my trips are typically above 10 miles and even some of the short ones I’ll use dynamic. I do not excessively idle. ~15 seconds at startup and sometimes about 30 seconds at cool-down to ensure proper lubrication circulation before driving and sufficient cooling afterward to minimize the after-run pump usage. The only performance modification I have is Euro Compulsion’s V2 cold air intake. The dynamic mode may run even richer than natural, although it may burn more fuel too. I don’t know if either mode has a greater effect on the fuel dilution rate.

Attached with the oil analysis report are some of the recommended troubleshooting steps. This being a new car with low miles (<10,000), so I think we can discard some of the recommendations such as worn components. Some likely suspects may be the factory t on the fuel pressure pump may be high, the crankcase ventilation may be inadequate, and possibly a high float. I haven’t observed any fuel leakage or faulty ignition. I did have a loose crankcase ventilation hose very early on in the ownership, but have changed the oil twice since then and do not believe this may be an issue.

I have emailed the fuel dilution finding to the Euro Compulsion team as they have gathered data on their engine tunes and interested to see if they have taken any oil samples along the way. Perhaps the performance coil packs may burn all the fuel most efficiently? I’m awaiting a response and if there is already a solution out there, I’d love to not only know it, but make sure the whole 4C community is aware this may likely be affecting their engines. We want these cars to stick around as long as possible!

105394


105395
 

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G’day Splash Man, I just had a service and had an oil sample taken for analysis also. I haven’t yet sent it in but will shortly when I have the time. I believe our direct injection engines may tend to leak at the injectors. It is a known fault in earlier Giuliettas. I want to see for myself how much fuel gets into the oil. I don’t know of a permanent cure. I’ve been told you can generally tell you’ve got a leaky injector if there’s slight momentary rough running on start-up. I don’t have this but maybe it doesn’t show if a leak is minuscule. Anyway, like you I want to find out for my own peace of mind and, if there is a problem, to seek a solution. I imagine it to be replacement of injectors but with what, I don’t know. I haven’t got that far yet.
Try over on the Giulietta section AlfaOwner Forum for further information. Good hunting.
 

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Great information Splash Man, good on you for your finding.I was all ways going to go back to my old faithful in oils after a few km in the 4c.I have used it for years with alot of turbo cars and non turbo, my brother still user's it in his race bikes.......yes you all know it CASTROL EDGE 10 60
I've seen it being poured in Bathurst 12 hr cars Porsches and Audi. That's good enough for me. Oh one year we turn around in back of pits and there it was again. I hope you can zoom in on it.😜👍👍
 

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Everyone needs to be familiar with the Honda 1.5L turbo fuel-oil dilution issue, which currently affects hundreds of thousands of vehicles and is a global battle. Honda developed a 1.5L turbo engine to take it into the next decades, found in common cars and small SUVs, and they are now trying to patch up a design problem (with how fuel is injected and the mixing properties in the combustion chamber), with software fixes (to run hotter sooner) and driving instructions to affected owners. "Y'll might want to actually drive these cars once in a while!''. It's falling way short. It's a big issue.

If the problem is inherent in design, then there is little to do, except change oil 2-3 times as often.

Maybe it's me, but did I read someone from Mobil come on here and not eliminate the biggest blunder I might have ever seen. Did I just read that someone threw in 0 weight oil and then, as an employee of Mobile, go on to ponder about oil diluting with fuel? I read that -- right? I am not even going to scroll up to see it again!

Another thing I see developing: Justifying (wrongly) why doing X (not approved) is ok, instead of Y (which is approved). STAHP

The wrong oil at cold start is the FIRST variable to be eliminated. Of course 0 weight oil is not want you want to go to war with when the type of engine (DI) that is more prone to oil dilution is coming to life on a cold, rich, wet, sloppy tune in a car that will take forever to warm up.

There's more, such as hints about the type of driver and driving, which is present in the language and... I can't. Why am I here?!!? WHY?

Driving at a given cruising speed is meaningless in these discussions! Highway speeds!?!!?! You can drive all day at highway speeds and not run at a truly meaningful temp!!

7 miles... 7 minutes... 100-130 KMH.... whatever! Tells us DIDDLY SQUAT (nothing).
 

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Maybe it's me, but did I read someone from Mobil come on here and not eliminate the biggest blunder I might have ever seen. Did I just read that someone threw in 0 weight oil and then, as an employee of Mobile, go on to ponder about oil diluting with fuel? I read that -- right? I am not even going to scroll up to see it again!

Another thing I see developing: Justifying (wrongly) why doing X (not approved) is ok, instead of Y (which is approved). STAHP

The wrong oil at cold start is the FIRST variable to be eliminated. Of course 0 weight oil is not want you want to go to war with when the type of engine (DI) that is more prone to oil dilution is coming to life on a cold, rich, wet, sloppy tune in a car that will take forever to warm up.

There's more, such as hints about the type of driver and driving, which is present in the language and... I can't. Why am I here?!!? WHY?

Driving at a given cruising speed is meaningless in these discussions! Highway speeds!?!!?! You can drive all day at highway speeds and not run at a truly meaningful temp!!

7 miles... 7 minutes... 100-130 KMH.... whatever! Tells us DIDDLY SQUAT (nothing).
Thanks for the information on the Honda engine - do you know the years of manufacturing affected by this?

As for me, being a Mobil employee and going against OEM recommendations, yes! 😇 This is simply to say I will be biased toward a Mobil product...that does not meet the Chrysler spec OR Fiat spec OR fulfill the ACEA C3 requirements.

What I AM saying is that we are all likely getting fuel in our oil, regardless of the viscosity written on the bottle. This is based off other members' oil analysis as well as my own. There is much discussion about the proper oils to use during our oil changes to meet the approved specifications. We are not all here using the same oils and I'm not plugging Mobil. Ideally the multi-grade oil should fulfill both the cold and operating temperature viscosity requirements, in this case 5W-40. And in the oil I am using, 0W-40, it does cover that entire range. If you or I have a 5W-40 oil, this isn't going to change the fact there is fuel dilution into the case. The viscosity grade at operating temperature is the critical factor here as the engine will eventually warm up. The viscosity value documented in the oil analysis report is taken at 100C, meaning there is fuel dilution still occurring during operating temps, and sure, it'll be more likely during warm-up too.

I have discussed this with Greg at EuroCompulsion and he had some great insights on the functionality of our engines. Two of the most likely reasons may be leaky fuel injectors and/or boost development during the warm-up process. One is corrected by habit - albeit patience not being one of them 😁. Perhaps all new 4C engines have leaky fuel injectors, and this can be investigated. The habit one will require more time and control.

If the fuel will continue to dilute the oil, the only solution I can think of at the moment is to blend the oil with a higher viscosity to compensate for the fuel dilution lowering the viscosity. This is not recommended, but if the oils are within the same product family, the additive packages are essentially the same and the difference would be the base oil viscosity. Not sure if I am going to try this without some more homework. I will keep you posted on my next oil analysis...Currently awaiting the EC Phase 2 tune.
 

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Thanks for the information on the Honda engine - do you know the years of manufacturing affected by this?

As for me, being a Mobil employee and going against OEM recommendations, yes! 😇 This is simply to say I will be biased toward a Mobil product...that does not meet the Chrysler spec OR Fiat spec OR fulfill the ACEA C3 requirements.

What I AM saying is that we are all likely getting fuel in our oil, regardless of the viscosity written on the bottle. This is based off other members' oil analysis as well as my own. There is much discussion about the proper oils to use during our oil changes to meet the approved specifications. We are not all here using the same oils and I'm not plugging Mobil. Ideally the multi-grade oil should fulfill both the cold and operating temperature viscosity requirements, in this case 5W-40. And in the oil I am using, 0W-40, it does cover that entire range. If you or I have a 5W-40 oil, this isn't going to change the fact there is fuel dilution into the case. The viscosity grade at operating temperature is the critical factor here as the engine will eventually warm up. The viscosity value documented in the oil analysis report is taken at 100C, meaning there is fuel dilution still occurring during operating temps, and sure, it'll be more likely during warm-up too.

I have discussed this with Greg at EuroCompulsion and he had some great insights on the functionality of our engines. Two of the most likely reasons may be leaky fuel injectors and/or boost development during the warm-up process. One is corrected by habit - albeit patience not being one of them 😁. Perhaps all new 4C engines have leaky fuel injectors, and this can be investigated. The habit one will require more time and control.

If the fuel will continue to dilute the oil, the only solution I can think of at the moment is to blend the oil with a higher viscosity to compensate for the fuel dilution lowering the viscosity. This is not recommended, but if the oils are within the same product family, the additive packages are essentially the same and the difference would be the base oil viscosity. Not sure if I am going to try this without some more homework. I will keep you posted on my next oil analysis...Currently awaiting the EC Phase 2 tune.
I mailed my sample for analysis on Monday (15/3/20) and will present the results when they are received. My oil of choice is Amsoil 5W40 European Formula Classic.
 
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