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honda turbo 1.5 dilution search terms

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You will learn valuable lessons.

In something like the 4C, I'd simply double my oil change rates, never go below 5w and do as I do today: Actually drive it responsibly as part of the warm up cycle, instead of idling like a clown (Porsche owners gotta get her warmed up, because their uncle had a Porsche and he said, blah frigging blah) and stop taking short, relaxed drives, and understand this is not an issue in cars that get driven very few miles. What... we gonna drop another 100 bucks a year on fresh oil?

Oil tests are 1/10 of a story. 9/10 is the owner. Warm up cycles done wrong, excessive cold running, cheapskating, garage-queening, and other human factors hurt most.

In a mass produced 1.5 turbo in cars and suvs meant to go often 20,000 miles / 32,000 km per year and for owners looking to go what used to be an easy 100,000 miles / 161,000 km, it is a big ass deal.

I can do 1500 mile oil changes if needed. I drive a months worth of miles over six months. But mass produced cars and oil dilution is the real issue. If you eliminate the variables Honda controlled for in their 'fix' ... and you're left to drop 100 bucks per year more on oil? I mean, you don't even need to pull the filter! Pump it out and replace it!

Ergo: a 4C oil dilution problem (if real) means I will spend $ on just oil, to double my oil change rate; I will pump it out, leave the filter and call it a day when I add some fresh oil. I might not even dirty my hands.
 

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Ergo: a 4C oil dilution problem (if real) means I will spend $ on just oil, to double my oil change rate; I will pump it out, leave the filter and call it a day when I add some fresh oil. I might not even dirty my hands.
The 4C fuel dilution in oil problem appears to be real because all people who have shared their oil analysis results (from various labs) on this forum have had the same finding. There are certain oils with properties to compensate for fuel dilution and I am not sure if there are any which meet all the required specifications for the 4C. If the fuel dilution problem does not get fixed the viscosity will be too low at operating temps and wear will have increased in progression. You mention to decrease the drain interval to 1,500 miles but my analysis showed that at 1,000 miles (and 4,200 miles) into the drain interval the oil was showing 5% fuel dilution.

I鈥檓 saying you can have your cake and eat it too here by fixing the oil鈥檚 low viscosity without altering the fuel injection/leaking problem...Yes, ideally we鈥檇 want to fix the fuel leaking into the crankcase but we agree that may not be possible with poor warm-up habits, which will be difficult to change and impractical. My proposed solution would allow you to warm-up however you want, not have to worry about the fuel dilution, AND fix the issue of low viscosity (due to the fuel dilution). We can鈥檛 stop people鈥檚 driving habits or the engines running rich during warm-up, and this will at least provide the proper viscosity for your engine.

I will be taking an oil sample prior to and after my ECU tune to compare analysis results as I will change the oil soon after the tune as well. I am theorizing the fuel dilution will remain while the viscosity will be back in the correct specification range.
 

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FYI, This is from my Blackstone analysis (3174 miles on the oil):
The brief start prior to sampling might account for the trace of fuel in this sample. Even if that's not true (and the fuel is operational in nature), it takes a lot more than a trace to show a problem, so we're not concerned about it. The viscosity was thin, but this probably wasn't enough fuel to thin it this much -- maybe something else was used or added (or residual oil from your previous oil change is to blame). Metals look great next to averages, and that's impressive since some of the metal here is probably just lingering wear-in. All told, very nice report!

105508
 

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FYI, This is from my Blackstone analysis (3174 miles on the oil):
The brief start prior to sampling might account for the trace of fuel in this sample. Even if that's not true (and the fuel is operational in nature), it takes a lot more than a trace to show a problem, so we're not concerned about it. The viscosity was thin, but this probably wasn't enough fuel to thin it this much -- maybe something else was used or added (or residual oil from your previous oil change is to blame). Metals look great next to averages, and that's impressive since some of the metal here is probably just lingering wear-in. All told, very nice report!

View attachment 105508
Sounds like they weren't concerned. How do you start driving your car? I always start car, pull out of garage and within 20-30 seconds drive away. I drive only in N mode and not getting into the turbo until the engine temp goes into normal range. At that point I usually go in D mode and once the oil temperature gets to normal range I can than "use" the car as it was intended. In short I suspect that by rushing this cold start process by starting out driving in D mode right away when cold, and going on turbo boost before it warms up could be the culprit. In my case I don't drive the car in very cold temperatures here in Michigan....instead it is in hibernation in those months. I haven't done an oil test yet although might one of these days...already have the kit.
 

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Did I just read @Splash Man say that after break in he went over 3000 miles to get to 5 percent? But some fancy solution is still needed.

I'll tell you right now that at 5 percent you should smell the fuel in the oil, and if YOU are getting over 300 miles to get to 5 percent, then I'll stick to my original plan and just change it before 3000 miles, but I haven't smelled a hint of fuel. Too many variables in this thread.

So, I don't think I have a problem and if I did have one that took over 3000 miles to reach 5 percent, I'll pump out and replace at 1500 miles.

Life is too short.
 

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I
Sounds like they weren't concerned. How do you start driving your car? I always start car, pull out of garage and within 20-30 seconds drive away. I drive only in N mode and not getting into the turbo until the engine temp goes into normal range. At that point I usually go in D mode and once the oil temperature gets to normal range I can than "use" the car as it was intended. In short I suspect that by rushing this cold start process by starting out driving in D mode right away when cold, and going on turbo boost before it warms up could be the culprit. In my case I don't drive the car in very cold temperatures here in Michigan....instead it is in hibernation in those months. I haven't done an oil test yet although might one of these days...already have the kit.
I would say that my routine is similar.
 

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The more people who get their oil tested the more clearly we may be able to see an emerging pattern. Better to act on evidence than be in blissful ignorance of it. I鈥檓 still waiting for my results to arrive.
 

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Did I just read @Splash Man say that after break in he went over 3000 miles to get to 5 percent? But some fancy solution is still needed.
No. I said 1,000 miles into a new oil change. 1st oil analysis was at 4,200 miles into previous oil, at which point it was changed. Followed up 1,000 miles in to monitor fuel dilution and it was present.
 

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Fair enough, but for some feedback, this thread is ugly. At some point, we need to list out data and variables.

I'll play:
  • 2015
  • 14800 miles +/-
  • 5 changes, no lab oil tests performed
  • Current oil has about 250 miles of use in temps from 30-50 F
Modification Variables:
  • None
Recommended Oil and/or Filter Variables:
  • Factory spec oil and filter
Driving Notes:

Checking oil regularly. All drives to full oil operating temp. Responsible 'warming by driving.' Comparing to other DI turbo and non-turbo cars, this is the cleanest looking oil I've had. It is the freshest smelling oil I've had compared to other DI cars.Oil has not darkened and there is no foul odor or fuel odor. The oil compares to a Celica GTS that I had, which was another car that stands out for maintaining a fresh color.

A note on fuel smell:

At 5% dilution of fuel, you should smell fuel in the oil at that point

Thoughts:

For the first 1500 miles, new car variables mean the first meaningful oil analysis is the second oil change. At the second oil change, done at the proper interval, you want that oil analysis done on a 100% stock car, and using recommended oil and filters. The second oil change and its oil analysis should be the first meaningful oil analysis that looks back on a broken-in engine with all factory specs, fluids and filters, including the air filter and intake components.

I will get a sample sent at 1500 miles for an analysis. If I have a problem, we're all in trouble. Please don't take me the wrong way; when I see a problem I know the key is that all variables need to be controlled for, and I am a case study in that, because of how my 4c is run and that there are no variables to eliminate.
 

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My oil test results came in. Here they are...
Fuel dilution after about 5,000km was 2%. It checks out as OK.
Amsoil 5W40 Euro Formula Classic is my oil of choice.
No short runs or lengthy idling warm-ups. I just start her up, wait maybe 15 seconds, drive out past my gate, close the gate, then drive off slowly. I only use D mode when on the open road, ready for fun, not in transport/transit sections of my drives. She runs an Alfaworks Stage 1 tune and has done a total of 25,200km, 5000km on the tested oil.

Is the loss of oil viscosity typical over that distance?

Any comments from those who know more about reading this data than my own rudimentary knowledge? A fuel dilution of 2% is certainly better than >5% fuel dilution. Not great though.

For you blokes who know the drive we did on Saturday and on other days, that is my typical road routine so you know the type of road use I鈥檓 talking about.

If more can get this done the better for any pattern to emerge.

Since starting to use this oil Amsoil has brought out an improved formula and now recommends this for the 4C. I鈥檒l be changing over to it on the next change.

Edit: What I鈥檓 really impressed with is the lack of metals such as aluminium and iron in the oil. Glad I chose to use Amsoil. It appears to be doing a very good job especially when compared with the metals in the Pennzoil and Mobil oil test results posted previously in posts #40 and #54. A pity Mankind didn鈥檛 post one as he initiated this thread.
 

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It鈥檇 be helpful if someone running on Selenia could get theirs tested to continue the ball rolling,
 

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Make sure you drive your car around until you reach a good oil temperature before doing the oil change.
 

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% of time spent running cold is a big variable between cars. When I drive, it's a special event. 1-2 times per week in the three good seasons. Rarely is a drive less than 30 minutes.

My backup plan is just to pump out some oil and replace it between oil changes, if the number is bad. No filter change needed.

If the quarantine ends soon and and weather warms, I'll get to a point quickly when I can get a meaningful oil analysis.
 

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My oil test results came in. Here they are...
Fuel dilution after about 5,000km was 2%. It checks out as OK.
Amsoil 5W40 Euro Formula Classic is my oil of choice.
No short runs or lengthy idling warm-ups. I just start her up, wait maybe 15 seconds, drive out past my gate, close the gate, then drive off slowly. I only use D mode when on the open road, ready for fun, not in transport/transit sections of my drives. She runs an Alfaworks Stage 1 tune and has done a total of 25,200km, 5000km on the tested oil.

Is the loss of oil viscosity typical over that distance?
Thanks for sharing Alfanut!
Good insight on another oil and what we're seeing within our engines. Overall looks good except the viscosity is low in my opinion, especially at the colder (40C) temperature, so this may have some effect during warm-up. The spec sheet calls for 83.3 cSt at 40C and you're at 67 cSt, or 80.3% of where you should be and 87.5% of where you should be at 100C. I believe this is where this may appear okay for now, and perhaps for tens of thousands of miles, but the wear metals are likely to increase over time as we trend these reports. The more we stay on periodic oil analysis, the more information we can capture here.

I believe the fuel is lowering the viscosity (as I've been preaching haha) as I wouldn't have expected a 5,000 km drain interval to reduce the viscosity that much. The 2% fuel dilution you showed had almost as much decrease in my viscosity at 100C, which is surprising to me. Oxidation or nitration will increase the oil's viscosity, so I do not believe we're pushing our drain intervals too far as there hasn't been an increase but a decrease in the viscosity of analyses shared. Who knows, perhaps these and many other engines are designed for a lowered viscosity to a point.

Regarding the Pennzoil Euro 5W-40 in post #40, their viscosity was 85.1% of what it should have been at 100C and mine was 82.2% at 100C when compared against the spec.

May I ask how you took your oil sample? (Drain plug during oil change or vacuum pump from dipstick, car warmed-up or cold)

Any comments from those who know more about reading this data than my own rudimentary knowledge? A fuel dilution of 2% is certainly better than >5% fuel dilution. Not great though.
Some general remarks regarding oil analysis testing: We see the reports from various labs are similar in the fact they have the overall properties, wear metals, contaminants, and additives categorized so you can better tell what you're looking at. Note that every lab will have their own test methods and results may vary due to it. Every lab will have their 'caution' & 'alert' limits as well. Some results will have both an upper and lower limit like viscosity while others will have only a one-sided limit such as wear metals or water content. Even the method which the oil sample is taken can induce some variability. I'll break it down by section:
  • Overall oil condition & physical tests:
    • Viscosity is the single most important item when selecting a lubricant in any application - hydraulics, bearings, gearbox, etc. and this is why I think the currently shown low viscosities may be very important to wear in long term. Done via viscometer at the temp(s) listed.
    • FTIR analysis is essentially a thumbprint of an oil. An oil is tested against a fresh sample of oil, where available. The peaks and valleys in this chart are the elemental presence of various items and the differences can indicate additional presence of other items in the oil. It will not tell the whole story, for example water will have O and H elements present, which can mask other things potentially contaminating the oil, which also contains H.
    • Water, the less the better, it lowers viscosity. Most engine oils are designed to carry a certain amount of water saturation so they can boil it off when circulated. 1,000 ppm (0.1%) water in oil can reduce bearing life by 75%...this is why short drives where the engine doesn't warm up are bad for any engine.
    • TBN & TAN is Total Base Number and Total Acid Number are indicators of the pH balance of oil. As the oil is less basic, it is therefore more acidic and will attack the metals of the engine. An acceptable value will be based on what your lab is measuring. Higher TBN values are better.
    • Oxidation/Nitration measure the rate at which the oil is oxidizing given operating conditions - A/F Ratio, sufficient operating temps, etc.
    • PQ Index is particle qualifier index captures the ferrous metals (iron) via electromagnetic field. We can measure the oil contamination via ISO Code and iron concentration via ppm, but if a large sliver of the piston liner came off, this would be captured here. Any value in the teens and higher is noteworthy.
    • Soot. Some oils have ash in the oil to fulfill catalytic converter and DPF requirements.
    • Fuel/Coolant are tests with a simple indicator. Some labs may have a simple method and if a sample passes it it, will go for further analysis to get a detailed numerical value.
  • Wear metals: Since these are engines, wear metals over time will be key information to how the engine is doing. In this case, aluminum and iron will be our main points of focus. Single digit ppm are likely to always be there, anything in the high 20s and 30s will indicate aging and should be paid attention to the next sample. Anything higher than that consistently is showing increased wear.
  • Contaminants: This one should be straightforward. Silicon is common of dirt and airborne dust and can also indicate seal wear. The alkalines of Sodium & Potassium (electrolytes) can indicate coolant leaks into the oil.
  • Additives: Calcium, Zinc (usually in form of ZDDP), and Phosphorus are common additives and detergents in oil. The concentration of these will vary by oil blend and should be trended for additive depletion. @Philster had a good point about adding oil mid-drain interval. This is a great (if not the best) practice to replenish your engine oil's additive package and reduce any onset oxidation which may be occurring.
Please let me know if you have any questions regarding the above and I'm compiling the various oil analysis results with viscosity and fuel correlations. I'll be taking more samples and sharing the results as the miles accumulate. Safe driving to all.
 

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Hi Splash Man, it was a sample taken mid-drain out of the sump hole and warm.
I have a BMC air filter installed.
Thanks for taking the time to comment on my oil test results and the general explanations of each component of it.
Looking forward to seeing more test results from others.
Edit: I鈥檒l get another one done in six months time.
 
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