[tibby]

Like i mentioned before, my day has come for an alignment with these guy's... (Final conclusion is post 18)

Hello from the Netherlands

Picked here up last friday. Such a great car to own already! First picture: Already put spacers (15mm front and rear) on it, but I don't have pictures of that already. Hello, How does the wheel sit with a 15mm spacer @ the back? I'm looking to use a 15mm or 20mm spacer. Kind regards

www.4c-forums.com

So,..... my story...

Wheel swap to 4 season tyres do bad/snowy weather

Of to Madeno in the Netherlands... Miserable weather

@ Madeno... Sunny !

Car on the bridge...Could not make more pictures due privacy reasons... There was a GR Yaris from Portugal, a new GT3 and a Gen 1 NSX in the shop.

The alignment took 5 hours... Got a car from Madeno to go far a dinner...
Clio RS

One for my mate Goldmax

Got the car back. Whent to the hotel in Tholen

Feeling not exactly good about this alignment....Stayed for two days in the hotel. Did a drive the day after....(was a bit drunk the day before....so not sure about things )

 

[tibby]

Went back home. Driving was not as good as i wanted to be.... The car was steering very heavy in corners. The tramlining was for 70 procent gone....

Mounted back my Pirelli's. Did a few roads were the tramlining was very bad @ home. Tramlining with this set up was literally gone, but steering was heavy in fast cornering.

So i looked up what forum members got for alignment and i came across with GMS street alignment.

I contacted Madeno back and this is what they told me....

rigth side Madeno alignment (actueel) vs Rudi's alignment



Di 14/03/2023 14:06

hallo André,

onderstaand vergelijk tussen de street spec. afstellingen Alfa 4C forum en de huidige actuele afstellingen
waarop we de 4C afgelopen vrijdag hebben afgesteld.

front camber street spec. -1.5 graden / actueel -0.7 graden

front caster street spec. +4.5 graden / actueel +5.1 graden

front totaal Toe street spec. 4 min. = +0.5mm / actueel + 1mm

rear camber street spec. -1.75 graden / actueel -1.90 graden

rear totaal Toe street spec. 36 minuten = +5mm Toe in / actueel +6mm Toe in


het camber voor van de street spec. -1.5 graden vindt ik persoonlijk voor sportief gebruik op de
openbare weg redelijk optimistisch. normaal gesproken verkiezen wij iets minder camber op de
voorwielen waardoor de auto minder nerveus is, betere remweg heeft omdat er in rechte lijn
meer rubber op het asfalt staat. door iets meer caster af te stellen, krijg je het camber erbij
wanneer nodig op het buitenwiel tijdens insturen en gaar er juist camber af op het binnenwiel
zodat de overall grip op de vooras beter wordt.

om een indruk te geven en het realistisch te maken wat het huidige caster doet icm met de huidige camber afstellingen:
bij 10 graden stuuruitslag gaat het buitenwiel in de bocht van -0.7 graden camber naar - 1.4 graden camber
het binnenwiel in de bocht daarentegen gaat juist terug van -0.7 naar +0.3 graden postief zodat er meer overall grip
en tractie is op de gehele vooras.

er zijn meerdere wegen naar Rome... )
grtn,
Leo

Below Rudi's sheet

They totaly don't make a fuss about anything. They give you the alignment you want. I can go back without a problem to fine tune...




So, feel free to discuss my alignment...Thanks guy's.

 

[tibby]

What alignment specs did you tell them to use? Race shops can’t help themselves to do front toe out.

Just wanted a alignment to take the tramlining out of it. Think when mounting new 7.5j front wheels with oem Pirelli's the stretch is even more and also tramlining increases...
This alignment is on of the safest , stablest one. It sadly removes the sportiness completely, which is certainly miss...

 

[Alfanut]

I don’t like front toe in. You’ve experienced the reason.…I’ve tried toe-out, toe-in and zero toe and found zero to be the best compromise.

 

[ArjanB]

From what I learned here on the forum (so much info) is indeed more caster generates dynamic camber in corners. However too much caster leads to heavy steering in corners, this you may experience now?
Agree with Alfanut above that toe-in may not be best choice, others mention 0 toe often as best setup.

I have the GMS blocks waiting to be installed, so will report back on my experiences soon.
By the way: 5 hours, that is quite some time! Assuming this is realistic, then this is what I am to expect.

 

[goldmax]

Omg that beer looks a good one 🍺😋 also what was your meal like? Stamppot ?

 

[goldmax]

Brilliant photos btw tibby and nice storytelling, we are lucky to have these cars and adventures, hoping for springtime soon to get my 4C out again. Those places look very much like our area in Lincolnshire.

 

[tibby]

Omg that beer looks a good one 🍺😋 also what was your meal like? Stamppot ?

Nope, got myself a steak and the wife something fish.
And ofcourse a couple of Duvel's

 

[tibby]

Brilliant photos btw tibby and nice storytelling, we are lucky to have these cars and adventures, hoping for springtime soon to get my 4C out again. Those places look very much like our area in Lincolnshire.

It's located in Zeeland, Netherlands. A nice place to visit. Friendly people...

 

[tibby]

From what I learned here on the forum (so much info) is indeed more caster generates dynamic camber in corners. However too much caster leads to heavy steering in corners, this you may experience now?
Agree with Alfanut above that toe-in may not be best choice, others mention 0 toe often as best setup.

I have the GMS blocks waiting to be installed, so will report back on my experiences soon.
By the way: 5 hours, that is quite some time! Assuming this is realistic, then this is what I am to expect.

Info from them about caster.... and the time consuming installation and set up...

Goedemiddag André,

we zijn van de standaard nét geen 2 graden caster op de vooras naar maar liefst 5.1 graden caster gegaan,
dat is een grote stap wat inderdaad wel ten koste gaat van de scherpte en agiliteit bij insturen.
de sporing voor hebben we van iets uitspoor naar iets toespoor afgesteld en achter hebben we de sporing
ook iets meer toe-spoor gegeven met als doel zoveel mogelijk stabiliteit en rust in de besturing te brengen.

vanaf de standaard fabrieksafstellingen tot de afstellingen van afgelopen vrijdag is wellicht voor u een te
grote stap en verliezen we hiermee teveel sportiviteit, tussen deze 2 afstellingen is ook nog heel veel
mogelijk. ik wil voorstellen om eerst nog een andere (soort tussen) afstelling te proberen met minder
caster maar wel meer als origineel af fabriek. en iets scherpere afstellingen van sporing.

met deze afstelling kunt u dan eerst bij ons proefrijden, en kunnen we daarna eventueel nog fine-tunen
of zelfs terug naar de originele afstellingen als het helemaal niet bevalt. ben er zeker van dat we een
mooi compromis kunnen vinden welke volledig aansluit bij uw persoonlijke wensen.

uiteraard maken we hiervoor graag een afspraak.

grtn,
Leo

Beste André,

Ja dat klopt, de4C is zeer nerveus in struurgedrag. we hebben veel tijd besteedt aan de wielgeometrie afstellingen
en doorontwkkeling van de 4C en inmiddels veel ervaring met de diverse setup afstellingen.

wij stellen de geometry geheel naar wens, behoefte en toepassingen van de 4C volledig handmatig af.
wij bieden géén complete set montage brackets omdat elke 4C zijn specifieke (aantal) shims en basis afwijkingen
heeft. met een complete set brackets is ook niet nodig, wel dient elke 4C individueel afgesteld te worden om
onderlinge verschillen tussen links en recht te compenseren en gelijk af te stellen.

de exacte prijs is beetje per auto afhankelijk voor wat betreft benodigde afstel tijd, correctie's en aantal
benodigde shims naast de benodigde aangepaste brackets. globaal zullen de kosten op
XXXXXXX incl. btw uitkomen. voor de parts en arbeid

gemiddeld hebben we ca. 4-6hr nodig voor hanmatige afstelling, metingen en correcties, waarop gewacht
kan worden.

indien er vragen zijn of iets niet duidelijk verneem ik het graag eventjes

vr.grtn,
Leo

 

[OriginalForza]

View attachment 140824

View attachment 140825

Went back home. Driving was not as good as i wanted to be.... The car was steering very heavy in corners. The tramlining was for 70 procent gone....

Mounted back my Pirelli's. Did a few roads were the tramlining was very bad @ home. Tramlining with this set up was literally gone, but steering was heavy in fast cornering.

So i looked up what forum members got for alignment and i came across with GMS street alignment.

I contacted Madeno back and this is what they told me....

rigth side Madeno alignment (actueel) vs Rudi's alignment



Di 14/03/2023 14:06

hallo André,

onderstaand vergelijk tussen de street spec. afstellingen Alfa 4C forum en de huidige actuele afstellingen
waarop we de 4C afgelopen vrijdag hebben afgesteld.

front camber street spec. -1.5 graden / actueel -0.7 graden

front caster street spec. +4.5 graden / actueel +5.1 graden

front totaal Toe street spec. 4 min. = +0.5mm / actueel + 1mm

rear camber street spec. -1.75 graden / actueel -1.90 graden

rear totaal Toe street spec. 36 minuten = +5mm Toe in / actueel +6mm Toe in


het camber voor van de street spec. -1.5 graden vindt ik persoonlijk voor sportief gebruik op de
openbare weg redelijk optimistisch. normaal gesproken verkiezen wij iets minder camber op de
voorwielen waardoor de auto minder nerveus is, betere remweg heeft omdat er in rechte lijn
meer rubber op het asfalt staat. door iets meer caster af te stellen, krijg je het camber erbij
wanneer nodig op het buitenwiel tijdens insturen en gaar er juist camber af op het binnenwiel
zodat de overall grip op de vooras beter wordt.

om een indruk te geven en het realistisch te maken wat het huidige caster doet icm met de huidige camber afstellingen:
bij 10 graden stuuruitslag gaat het buitenwiel in de bocht van -0.7 graden camber naar - 1.4 graden camber
het binnenwiel in de bocht daarentegen gaat juist terug van -0.7 naar +0.3 graden postief zodat er meer overall grip
en tractie is op de gehele vooras.

er zijn meerdere wegen naar Rome... )
grtn,
Leo

Below Rudi's sheet

View attachment 140826

They totaly don't make a fuss about anything. They give you the alignment you want. I can go back without a problem to fine tune...




So, feel free to discuss my alignment...Thanks guy's.

Your main problem is the stiffness of the pirellis, and the idea that the factory had in mind for the 4c to differentiate from feeling too identical to a Lotus Exige.

Change for wider, lighter, strong wheels, try on Michelin Pilot Sports, of the 225/x and 275+/45 kind.

Done. Also, upgrading to stainless teflon lines and the best track-spec brake fluid you can afford to keep will eliminate brake fade that oem somehow also manages. Pads aren't necessary, but if you want more sport back into the whole deal, upgrade for better bite here too, match with vaned rotors for clearing the extra gas made.

After that, add Rudy's links, maybe arm links depending how aggressive you went on the tires, and the tramlining is dead.

The alignment is all compromises if you stay with those oem wheels and tires, mainly because it's McPherson rear square car, a short one at that. Until someone comes out with an "extended rear subframe" and push back the rear wheels, speed will accentuate the road or the beneficial caster will bind things up at the far end. With softer tires, more compliance/isolation from the road's forms, then it will drive more like that commuter car you're trying to approximate... But then you must lose the feeling that the 4c brings to the yard in spades. Race cars don't do well as street cars because of this very reality.

 

[ArjanB]

But then you must lose the feeling that the 4c brings to the yard in spades. Race cars don't do well as street cars because of this very reality.

Believe we are all after a setting in between 'too wild' i.e. tramlining all over the place and into the next tree, vs 'dull stable'.
Porsches handle perfect and stable; the 4C was never intended to be like that (absence of power steering) and I guess you also don't want that.
From factory the 4C alignment is far from perfect when using on the road, so it can be improved without sacrificing the unique 4C-feel.

@tibby pity Madeno is not around the corner (same for me) but I'd bite the bullet, spend another day travelling to Zeeland (not the most beautiful part of our country...) and have them dial-in a little less caster, maybe bit more camber and zero toe (perhaps even little toe-out to bring back some liveliness) and see how that feels and suits you.

 

[tibby]

Believe we are all after a setting in between 'too wild' i.e. tramlining all over the place and into the next tree, vs 'dull stable'.
Porsches handle perfect and stable; the 4C was never intended to be like that (absence of power steering) and I guess you also don't want that.
From factory the 4C alignment is far from perfect when using on the road, so it can be improved without sacrificing the unique 4C-feel.

@tibby pity Madeno is not around the corner (same for me) but I'd bite the bullet, spend another day travelling to Zeeland (not the most beautiful part of our country...) and have them dial-in a little less caster, maybe bit more camber and zero toe (perhaps even little toe-out to bring back some liveliness) and see how that feels and suits you.

Doing a lot of turning , sharp cornering,etc the last 2 days with it. i'm getting used to the harder cornering with my steeringwheel. The car feels more planted in a corner in the front, but you feel this in your arms. Whining like a little b^tch probably.
For now, the car tramilines less, i can pass another car while accellerating a bad road without winding into a ditch. Only fast cornering takes more efford. Like i said, i'm getting used to it.
Probably in a month or so, i'm forgetting all of this stuff....
So that brings me, i'm going to keep this alignment for now......

Like i said.....i'm a little whining....well..you know....

 

[tibby]

The changement in set up was probably to big for me to understand..... Need to go with the flow for now...

 

[ArjanB]

maybe nice to place next to the 4C:

driving then also gives a good workout!


but seriously: it shouldn't be too heavy, as that would spoil the drive and ability to quickly and precisely steer the car where you want it to do

 

[OriginalForza]

Believe we are all after a setting in between 'too wild' i.e. tramlining all over the place and into the next tree, vs 'dull stable'.
Porsches handle perfect and stable; the 4C was never intended to be like that (absence of power steering) and I guess you also don't want that.
From factory the 4C alignment is far from perfect when using on the road, so it can be improved without sacrificing the unique 4C-feel.

@tibby pity Madeno is not around the corner (same for me) but I'd bite the bullet, spend another day travelling to Zeeland (not the most beautiful part of our country...) and have them dial-in a little less caster, maybe bit more camber and zero toe (perhaps even little toe-out to bring back some liveliness) and see how that feels and suits you.

Porsches do not handle "perfect" unless you're comparing (which model? Year? Car? Like, the Cayenne that failed the moose test? Lol) say a GT3 RS, which, FYI my time in my 4c is faster than my identical suspension kit from Manthey 991.2 on tighter tracks, exact same tires except width. My Porsche started tramlining when it shaved seconds off my track time with said kit, so I am speaking facts, not generalizations somehow deluded by masses whom may never have driven a 4c. I outdrive porsches all day IRL on really bad roads and never even had a knick to my wheels, if you need me to upload high res pics of all 4 of my wheels with the debut of the roofless Roma debuting tomorrow, let me know... Much less any trees. Driving a sharp setup does require sharp reflexes.

But we do totally agree, the factory didn't spend nearly enough time dialing it all in to a more balanced equation. Definitely a fail there.

 

[tibby]

maybe nice to place next to the 4C:

driving then also gives a good workout!


but seriously: it shouldn't be too heavy, as that would spoil the drive and ability to quickly and precisely steer the car where you want it to do

maybe nice to place next to the 4C:

driving then also gives a good workout!


but seriously: it shouldn't be too heavy, as that would spoil the drive and ability to quickly and precisely steer the car where you want it to do

I do powerlifting..... so i'm not that concerned about putting more efford into things...

 

[tibby]

My final conclusion:
Going to keep this alignment. Maybe finetune it. But that's not 100% sure.
Car does tramline A LOT less. Yes, steering is maybe heavier, but i'll take that with it. Front grip is fenominal btw in hard/cornering.
Like i said before....probably forget the steering part in a month (or week) or so....

 

[goldmax]

It's located in Zeeland, Netherlands. A nice place to visit. Friendly people...
View attachment 140836

We had a Dutch student stay with us, she brought us stroop waffles and salmiak liquorice , she lived on that middle island. She actually drove here by herself in one of these little peugeots

 

[tibby]

We had a Dutch student stay with us, she brought us stroop waffles and salmiak liquorice , she lived on that middle island. She actually drove here by herself in one of these little peugeots
View attachment 140866

Ah yes, Stroopwafels...They do love them
I'm a Belgium guy...leaning towards English/Scottish attitude/food . A good pint and a big piece of meat.