[goldmax]

If you're in a turn/sweeper long enough to build power/speed to redline (Watkins Glen is surely as such), your hands might not be at 9-3, but they're at least in that 10-8/left and 2-4/right window. There's no way that's confusing.

In an anecdote about a former pro driver who couldn't handle paddle shifting that I offered, he just couldn't deal with the sequential part. He couldn't think linearly up/down, and it wasn't about hand position. His brain was built to know the gear in the tactile sense from the shifter pattern. The sequential nature of modern shifting just couldn't be done -- like learning a new language at an older age. The brain pliability ain't as good.

.

I have that issue Phil, I’m 52, I also struggle with Italian, apart from spina which means draught lager 🍺

 

[hornetball]

He couldn't think linearly up/down, and it wasn't about hand position. His brain was built to know the gear in the tactile sense from the shifter pattern. The sequential nature of modern shifting just couldn't be done -- like learning a new language at an older age.

I struggle with this too. An H-pattern (and derivatives) is quite natural for me and I can keep my eyes up. With the paddles, I have to take a lot of confirmatory glances to make sure which gear I'm in and whether the computer understood/accepted my inputs. That can be annoying although the shifts are definitely quicker.

 

[Mahjik]

My S2000 is manual and I do have to somewhat alter my thought pattern for gearing. Obviously, the goal for gearing is to be into the gear going into the corner that you want to having coming out. In reality, it's the same thing. Instead of thinking I'm in 5th and I need to be in 3rd, I think about how many gears I need to go down which works as well for auto-manuals (i.e. down two).

Honestly, the only difference for me is deciding if I'm going to go from say 5th straight to 3rd or go down sequentially when driving a manual and that just takes laps to see what is better for each braking zone. I do think for me it's more natural as I do quite a bit of sim driving. I do have an H-pattern shifter and I drive the virtual cars how they are intended to be driven in real life (so paddle shifting for those cars, and H-pattern for the others). However, I don't do the sequential stick version but I technically can as my H-pattern shifter supports it. I do believe that helps my mind more easily transition between the two.

 

[Philster]

I am 53 and drove manuals my entire life, with the exception of trucks I've owned, but I've had driving sims since they first came out, which might be over 20 years ago now, and firing off shifts with paddles or dogbox style for all that time probably helped. Used to be in GP and Rally cars and sim steering/pedal setups were mostly dogbox style originally, then the paddles were available before 2010 on popular sim steering/pedal setups (if I recall correctly -- maybe earlier ??).

Definitely helped me understand how much fun an automated manual can be. Surely helped my brain while there was a modicum of pliability left. I am trying to learn French at 53... if for no other reason than to exercise the brain.

 

[RKBerta]

I agree that learning new skills as life progresses has some challenges but can be done. One has to learn to adapt.
I am also a musician and play various keyboard instruments....pipe and electronic organ, synthesizer, acoustic accordion and electronic accordion, piano, classical guitar, etc. Even if you only can play one instrument, as you try different models/brands. Every instrument is very different and each requires modifying your skill set. For instance on organ I have multiple stacked keyboards, a pedal board that has a full range of notes played with both feet, and volume is adjusted through a pedal much like a car gas pedal. An accordion has a completely different feel....first the keyboards are vertical instead of horizontal, the left hand has 120 buttons that can be switched to play both single notes and chords or all single notes in a very wide range. That button layout is completely different than the right hand piano keyboard. Volume is adjusted by varying the amount of pressure applied to the bellows and has dynamics much like a wind instrument or violin. A piano has a completely different feel. One keyboard only and is loudest when a key is first pushed and than dies out unlike the previous instruments which can have volume changed from very low to loud and back. You would think that the three instruments would be played the same way since their keyboards look the same....but they are as different as a violin and a trumpet are in how you play them. Yet once you learn to play them you can easily move from one to the other.
Likewise I have found it is just a matter of adapting to the differences between vehicles over time. One example of that is how we develop muscle memory in a car. Most of us are used to using the right foot for gas pedal and left for brake and clutch if your car has one. Try right foot braking for the first time and you will find it feels very unnatural and jerky for a while. That is just one example of new challenges we all must deal with when new technology comes to cars.

 

[4Canada]

... You would think that the three instruments would be played the same way since their keyboards look the same....but they are as different as a violin and a trumpet are in how you play them. ...

I would play the violin and trumpet both the same - VERY BADLY!

Interesting comparisons, though.

 

[goldmax]

I am 53 and drove manuals my entire life, with the exception of trucks I've owned, but I've had driving sims since they first came out, which might be over 20 years ago now, and firing off shifts with paddles or dogbox style for all that time probably helped. Used to be in GP and Rally cars and sim steering/pedal setups were mostly dogbox style originally, then the paddles were available before 2010 on popular sim steering/pedal setups (if I recall correctly -- maybe earlier ??).

Definitely helped me understand how much fun an automated manual can be. Surely helped my brain while there was a modicum of pliability left. I am trying to learn French at 53... if for no other reason than to exercise the brain.

Bonjour Philippe

 

[Alfanut]

I agree that learning new skills as life progresses has some challenges but can be done. One has to learn to adapt.
I am also a musician and play various keyboard instruments....pipe and electronic organ, synthesizer, acoustic accordion and electronic accordion, piano, classical guitar, etc. Even if you only can play one instrument, as you try different models/brands. Every instrument is very different and each requires modifying your skill set. For instance on organ I have multiple stacked keyboards, a pedal board that has a full range of notes played with both feet, and volume is adjusted through a pedal much like a car gas pedal. An accordion has a completely different feel....first the keyboards are vertical instead of horizontal, the left hand has 120 buttons that can be switched to play both single notes and chords or all single notes in a very wide range. That button layout is completely different than the right hand piano keyboard. Volume is adjusted by varying the amount of pressure applied to the bellows and has dynamics much like a wind instrument or violin. A piano has a completely different feel. One keyboard only and is loudest when a key is first pushed and than dies out unlike the previous instruments which can have volume changed from very low to loud and back. You would think that the three instruments would be played the same way since their keyboards look the same....but they are as different as a violin and a trumpet are in how you play them. Yet once you learn to play them you can easily move from one to the other.
Likewise I have found it is just a matter of adapting to the differences between vehicles over time. One example of that is how we develop muscle memory in a car. Most of us are used to using the right foot for gas pedal and left for brake and clutch if your car has one. Try right foot braking for the first time and you will find it feels very unnatural and jerky for a while. That is just one example of new challenges we all must deal with when new technology comes to cars.

????? I would think most people use their right foot for accelerator and brake and only use their left for the clutch. It’s left-foot braking that racers use that needs to be learned....but I understand the point you’re making.

 

[RKBerta]

????? I would think most people use their right foot for accelerator and brake and only use their left for the clutch. It’s left-foot braking that racers use that needs to be learned....but I understand the point you’re making.

In the US....most people have automatic trans so are used to right foot gas and brake. Those that drive a car with a clutch usually use left foot for clutch and right for gas and brake. I used right for gas and brake for heel and toe and left for clutch but very few people would do that unless they are hard core sports car people or racers.
I agree that left foot braking has advantages for a car like ours....lets you keep the turbo spooled up.

 

[Alfanut]

In the US....most people have automatic trans so are used to right foot gas and brake. Those that drive a car with a clutch usually use left foot for clutch and right for gas and brake. I used right for gas and brake for heel and toe and left for clutch but very few people would do that unless they are hard core sports car people or racers.
I agree that left foot braking has advantages for a car like ours....lets you keep the turbo spooled up.

Now I understand. I'm from the world of manual gearboxes. The 4C was my first automatic (well, automated manual) excluding my wifes' car.

 

[Philster]

In the US, from when a child, the mantra is beaten into your head: Don't drive with your left foot! If you start driving and a parent catches that left foot doing anything, you are reminded of the mantra immediately.

Banning the left foot when driving is literally part of the U.S. culture. Automatics are that prevalent, and anyone who grew up on manuals or drove one young is a tiny subculture (such as me).

Making the left foot dumb and irrelevant is literally something people are indoctrinated into from when they are first taught to drive. You check your mirrors, hands at 9 and 3 and don't drive with the left foot.

Further, within the manual transmission driver subculture, which might be 5-7% of the population, there is an infinitesimally small group who actually know how to drive a manual trans properly. It might be less than 1% of drivers can hop into a manual, work the clutch properly or rev match. The rest are just scraping by... burning up clutches... lugging to death... or driving a manual with clutch delay valves, anti-rollback, anti-stall, etc,

 

[lpspeedster]

Further, within the manual transmission driver subculture, which might be 5-7% of the population, there is an infinitesimally small group who actually know how to drive a manual trans properly. It might be less than 1% of drivers can hop into a manual, work the clutch properly or rev match. The rest are just scraping by... burning up clutches... lugging to death... or driving a manual with clutch delay valves, anti-rollback, anti-stall, etc,

That is why I installed a nice left foot landing/resting pad (similar to the picture) on my older 911....oh wait....I still have to shift! CRAP!!
Historically, there were always manuals and there were MANUALS. Also, in the summertime if they were wearing shorts, you could always identify anyone running a cable clutch or even earlier hydraulic clutch on a sports car as they definitely had a LARGER left calf!!!

 

[hornetball]

Anyone else learn to drive on a VW Beetle?

 

[4C ALFA]

I agree that learning new skills as life progresses has some challenges but can be done. One has to learn to adapt.
I am also a musician and play various keyboard instruments....pipe and electronic organ, synthesizer, acoustic accordion and electronic accordion, piano, classical guitar, etc. Even if you only can play one instrument, as you try different models/brands. Every instrument is very different and each requires modifying your skill set. For instance on organ I have multiple stacked keyboards, a pedal board that has a full range of notes played with both feet, and volume is adjusted through a pedal much like a car gas pedal. An accordion has a completely different feel....first the keyboards are vertical instead of horizontal, the left hand has 120 buttons that can be switched to play both single notes and chords or all single notes in a very wide range. That button layout is completely different than the right hand piano keyboard. Volume is adjusted by varying the amount of pressure applied to the bellows and has dynamics much like a wind instrument or violin. A piano has a completely different feel. One keyboard only and is loudest when a key is first pushed and than dies out unlike the previous instruments which can have volume changed from very low to loud and back. You would think that the three instruments would be played the same way since their keyboards look the same....but they are as different as a violin and a trumpet are in how you play them. Yet once you learn to play them you can easily move from one to the other.
Likewise I have found it is just a matter of adapting to the differences between vehicles over time. One example of that is how we develop muscle memory in a car. Most of us are used to using the right foot for gas pedal and left for brake and clutch if your car has one. Try right foot braking for the first time and you will find it feels very unnatural and jerky for a while. That is just one example of new challenges we all must deal with when new technology comes to cars.

Whenever I drive a new car (any new car) It feels foreign to me and I am uncomfortable with it, but after a short while I always seem to adapt. And I am on my way, no problem. I first learned to drive using both an automatic and a manual gearbox. When I now hear that some people are actually afraid to drive a manual. I really question their basic skill set and competence. Should they be driving at all? After 15 or 20 minutes of driving a manual you will not be an expert, but if you can't manage to safely drive down the road. You got bigger problems than that of driving a car. I will repeat the often used phrase " this ain't rocket science".

 

[4Canada]

Anyone else learn to drive on a VW Beetle?

Not "to drive", but to drive stick.
On a camping/fishing vacation up north with a high school friend, and I wound up having to take the wheel for a stint.
Baptism by fire - Holiday weekend traffic on the side of a divided highway (speed limit 60 mph, traffic flowing at 70) headed up to cottage country, in a clapped out early '60's Beetle loaded down with 2 guys, gear, and a canoe on the roof. 1/8 mile ahead, the shoulder disappeared in favour of a steep cliff as the highway became a bridge over a deep river gorge. Stalling it a few times quickly ate into my 1/8 mile acceleration lane! This was going north from Toronto, and it seems that the entire population was on the same road. There might have been a little rubber laid / gravel displaced, but we made it!!!

 

[goldmax]

In the US....most people have automatic trans so are used to right foot gas and brake. Those that drive a car with a clutch usually use left foot for clutch and right for gas and brake. I used right for gas and brake for heel and toe and left for clutch but very few people would do that unless they are hard core sports car people or racers.
I agree that left foot braking has advantages for a car like ours....lets you keep the turbo spooled up.

I would never do left foot braking, that would be too dangerous for me anyway in a manual car. I have tried braking with my left foot in my manual van and I tend to ram it down too hard.

 

[4Canada]

I would never do left foot braking, that would be too dangerous for me anyway in a manual car. I have tried braking with my left foot in my manual van and I tend to ram it down too hard.

Everybody does at first. Doesn't matter manual or automatic, your left foot is trained to mash a clutch pedal, your right to modulate the throttle (and is therefore better at modulating a brake pedal, until you educate your left to do so).

There is absolutely no reason to left foot brake on the street. Even Raikkonen in a recent vido (in a Giulia with Giovinazzi on the Nurburgring) said that he doesn't left foot brake in a road car.

But on track, there are some advantages in terms of being smoother off the gas and still quickly on the brake. Also the other way around. This helps keep the car from getting "the other way around".

I'm spending this winter teaching my left foot to modulate the brake pedal on the street, and so far it is going decently well. Takes a while to trust it (my brain wants to hit the brake pedal much earlier when it's the left foot in charge).

Downsides are that you don't have a dead pedal to brace against (in the 4C, on track, that is useful, although a good seat and harness helps to eliminate that), and that you had better have told your brain ahead of time which foot to send to the brake pedal in the case of an emergency stop. There isn't time for your legs and brain to think about it when a deer steps out in front of your car in the dark. Worse yet, a child!!!

 

[Philster]

Anyone else learn to drive on a VW Beetle?

'81 Wabbit Diesel! ....to learn manual

 

[Rainier G]

Anyone else learn to drive on a VW Beetle?

🙋‍♂️

 

[Philster]

I left foot brake when parking or similar and when at an intersection and want to jump into endless stream of traffic.