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Discussion Starter #1
Lots of people keep talking about the roadster, track and stradale versions of the 4C. I've read a few articles which state Alfa have confirmed these models, however the information these 'sources' provided on the 4C have so far be proven to be incorrect - number being produced, power output etc.

At the Geneva launch it was mentioned in the launch that a kit will be available with specific suspension and tyres for the track. Didn't mention a different car, simply a race kit.

Does anyone know for sure whether AR have confirmed any of these models?
 

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All rumours up until this point but my source is normally spot on. There will be a Stradale version and a drop top. I know in the information pack sent out regarding the LE, there is mention about special "race tyres" that are available which were specifically made for the 4C by Pirelli.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It would be interesting to see what a cloverleaf could add to mix. Not sure what they could more they could achieve though! More powerful engine = faster 0-62mph time IF you didn't spin the rear wheels too much. Suspension is already 'race' tuned on the LE as well as having a truckload of other performance/aesthetic enhancements.

If/when they do release a cloverleaf I'm sure it will be impressive!
 

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I actually don't think there will come a more powerfull AR 4C from AR itself, because if you look at the torque-curve of the engine the torque is limited between 2000-4000 rpm. This is an indication that the 6 speed TCT Gearbox can't handle a torque higher than 350 Nm. Probably this is due to the width of the gearwheels



A more powerfull version therefor isn't that interesting because the extra power is only usefull for higher topspeed and the additional torque that comes with the increase of power can't be used unless the gearbox is changed.
 

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Whilst I love the idea of a QV or GTA version of the 4C, I think Alfa need the standard car to meet or exceed business case, and re-establish the brand in US and 2014 will be about maximum focus on the Giulia and SUV products. Without success in these volume models, then future Alfas will end up with VW DNA.
I think the reference to race spec suspension kits is probably like Abarth do in Europe where packs are available for brakes, exhaust, springs, dampers. The LE has the optional springs and exhaust already.
Adding more power to the 4C kind of contradicts the strategy not to chase after more and more power but instead focus on power/weight ratio. If too much more power is added the performance is not going to be far off the cars from Maranello (sub 4s 0-100kph) which wouldn't be politically correct in the Fiat Group.
I struggle to see what the purpose of a 4C Spider would be when we will have the new Spider in 2015 - the 4C might work as a targa
 

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You say the car is about power/weight ratio but don't see how adding more power will help that. Really?

Another 30hp would be great to take the care where it should be, 4.2s rather than 4.5s. 30hp doesn't get you to the 3s range.

Tires spinning? That's what the traction and launch control are for.

As much as I like the car in general, the LE doesn't come in the color I want and I don't think I'll be getting an Alfa w/o a quadrofoglio. I'm pretty sure they can drop at least another 50lbs out of the car, I can think of a few areas already.

Hopefully by then they will implement less cheap HVAC controls as well like the ones in this Giullietta.

 

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Is there any data or info that says the TCT is limited to 350Nm beyond an assumption from looking at the graph? That could easily be explained by other factors. Even if it were, you could still extend the torque curve and pump out more power.
 

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Abraxis said:
You say the car is about power/weight ratio but don't see how adding more power will help that. Really?

Another 30hp would be great to take the care where it should be, 4.2s rather than 4.5s. 30hp doesn't get you to the 3s range.

Tires spinning? That's what the traction and launch control are for.

As much as I like the car in general, the LE doesn't come in the color I want and I don't think I'll be getting an Alfa w/o a quadrofoglio. I'm pretty sure they can drop at least another 50lbs out of the car, I can think of a few areas already.

Hopefully by then they will implement less cheap HVAC controls as well like the ones in this Giullietta.

Just to be clear....you want them (and think it is very easy) to cut 50lbs but put a fully automatic HVAC like the one on the giulietta??????

I will never understand some people's requests
 

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deppi0 said:
I will never understand some people's requests
Perhaps because you need to have a closer reading. I said:

1-They should use a higher quality HVAC than the 30 year old cheap crap they are putting in the 4C currently.

2-I said there is another 50lbs they could drop from the car most likely.

Now, assuming your comprehension was correct, which it isn't, it still makes sense since you'd have a car roughly the same weight w/ a better interior and features. If that is hard to understand, maybe there's a problem elsewhere w/ your understanding.

And yes, for a more expensive Stradale edition, it is easy to see at least 40lbs that could be dropped off the car based on a cursory glance of available photos. I'm sorry if you don't see it.
 

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Abraxis said:
Is there any data or info that says the TCT is limited to 350Nm beyond an assumption from looking at the graph? That could easily be explained by other factors. Even if it were, you could still extend the torque curve and pump out more power.
Graphs show so much more than you may think, it gives a good view of the engineering part, in this case the tct gearbox. But search on google and you'll find much more sources that does quote the same.

The width of the gearwheels is the limiting because alfa romeo used the main cases of the C635 6-speed gearbox and also shares other components of this manual gearbox. Due to fitting an automatic gearbox into an manual gearbox housing there is less space inside the housing, which is the cause of the maximum torque this gearbox can handle. Higher torque levels will result in breaking the tooths of the gearwheels which result in gearbox failure.
 

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4cnl said:
Graphs show so much more than you may think, it gives a good view of the engineering part, in this case the tct gearbox. But search on google and you'll find much more sources that does quote the same.

The width of the gearwheels is the limiting because alfa romeo used the main cases of the C635 6-speed gearbox and also shares other components of this manual gearbox. Due to fitting an automatic gearbox into an manual gearbox housing there is less space inside the housing, which is the cause of the maximum torque this gearbox can handle. Higher torque levels will result in breaking the tooths of the gearwheels which result in gearbox failure.
This is true to a point but graph analysis can either be a product of correlation rather than causation. Torque peaks/plateaus don't often indicate a limit to a transmissions load in most cars, and 260lb/ft seems pretty optimal for a small turbo tune on a 1.8 rather than being a limitation. Don't know what size they are running but it seems to spool well, so likely small. I do see that the rapid fall-off certainly could indicate concerns w/ stress designed into the mapping. Just wan't sure if there was some other breathing problem that perhaps was tuned into a lower base model by design.
___
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Wasn't aware that's how they went about making this DCT. Makes me want to send out the gears for some cryo treatment when it comes in.
 

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Abraxis said:
4cnl said:
Graphs show so much more than you may think, it gives a good view of the engineering part, in this case the tct gearbox. But search on google and you'll find much more sources that does quote the same.

The width of the gearwheels is the limiting because alfa romeo used the main cases of the C635 6-speed gearbox and also shares other components of this manual gearbox. Due to fitting an automatic gearbox into an manual gearbox housing there is less space inside the housing, which is the cause of the maximum torque this gearbox can handle. Higher torque levels will result in breaking the tooths of the gearwheels which result in gearbox failure.
This is true to a point but graph analysis can either be a product of correlation rather than causation. Torque peaks/plateaus don't often indicate a limit to a transmissions load in most cars, and 260lb/ft seems pretty optimal for a small turbo tune on a 1.8 rather than being a limitation. Don't know what size they are running but it seems to spool well, so likely small. I do see that the rapid fall-off certainly could indicate concerns w/ stress designed into the mapping. Just wan't sure if there was some other breathing problem that perhaps was tuned into a lower base model by design.
___
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Wasn't aware that's how they went about making this DCT. Makes me want to send out the gears for some cryo treatment when it comes in.
There's a good chance the cryo treatment won't have a good influence on the material properties of the gearwheels, because gearwheels are already hardened in the fabrication process. Too much heat treatment makes the material brittle so that failing of the material will happen earlier than before the extra treatment. So I wouldn't do another heat treatment.
 

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Are gearbox limitations ONLY down to engine input? I would have thought that moving a lower mass around would put less stress on the box than a big fat car. A light car will break traction before a heavy one (in a straight line). If you don't make the tyres too wide or too sticky, I would have thought you could go up a bit with torque
 

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Abraxis said:
deppi0 said:
I will never understand some people's requests
Perhaps because you need to have a closer reading. I said:

1-They should use a higher quality HVAC than the 30 year old cheap crap they are putting in the 4C currently.

2-I said there is another 50lbs they could drop from the car most likely.

Now, assuming your comprehension was correct, which it isn't, it still makes sense since you'd have a car roughly the same weight w/ a better interior and features. If that is hard to understand, maybe there's a problem elsewhere w/ your understanding.

And yes, for a more expensive Stradale edition, it is easy to see at least 40lbs that could be dropped off the car based on a cursory glance of available photos. I'm sorry if you don't see it.
I would really like to hear where you think they could drop 50lbs easily from this car. It seems like they have done almost everything to save weight including thinner glass and plastic body panels

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #20
deppi0 said:
I would really like to hear where you think they could drop 50lbs easily from this car.
Obviously from the driver Deppi0. Don't you know anything? :p

Offer a better HVAC as an option only if the driver weighs < 50kg.
 
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