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I'll reiterate. Tires, period.
Tires are a part of the equation. However, one of the things the OP mentioned was the surface. Stiff suspensions don't handle non-smooth roads that well. If the tires are not able to make full contact to the road, then the type of tire won't help. The OP is correct that for a road like that, a car with a softer suspension will inspire more confidence. The suspension will absorb more of the road issues giving the driver more confidence. However, when you get on that smooth road and/or track, that stiff suspension with sticky tires will shine. ;)
 

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For grip these appear the best. Value for money, Hankook R-S4s are up there. They’ll last ages longer than the Bridgestones, only giving away a little in grip while only costing half as much. I‘ve heard on the grapevine that Bridgestone is currently testing a RE71R replacement. More grip than the new Yokos, I believe.
Not half the price here, but the savings comes from supposedly lasting 3+ times as long.

Jeff
 

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Not half the price here, but the savings comes from supposedly lasting 3+ times as long.

Jeff
Really? I got a set for about $800AU ($170 fronts 215/45x17, $230 rears 235/40x18 each.) At the current exchange rate that’s about $550USD. An advantage having my brother-in-laws’ uncle own a tyre shop at the time I suppose.
 

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The RS4, when I last priced them for my rim size, was about $50 to 100 cheaper than the RE71. Something in the $650 range, if I remember correctly... It is one of the reason why I didn't get them. I ended up with the Falken RT615K+ since they were even cheaper than the RS4 and I was very happy with their performance.
 

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Really? I got a set for about $800AU ($170 fronts 215/45x17, $230 rears 235/40x18 each.) At the current exchange rate that’s about $550USD. An advantage having my brother-in-laws’ uncle own a tyre shop at the time I suppose.

US: Tire Rack: Hankook $675; Bridgestone $758

Jeff
 

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2016 4C Spider + 1985 Ferrari 308 GTS QV Black on White + 1981 Delorean DMC12 6MT Grey Interior
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2. The 4C is a very hard car to drive fast
I'm very fortunate that my job has given me the opportunity to drive just about everything out there on the track. The 4C is one of the hardest modern cars to drive at 10/10's. The mid-engine and short wheel base contribute mostly to that fact. That being said it takes a lot of skill to push the 4C to it's limits (which shouldn't be done on the street). I suggest you take a performance driving course. You will be amazed at how much it improves your street driving as well as lap times on the track.
I'm curious for a new opinion, as I am deep diving into the 4c's dynamics (so to understand what mods and direction I want to take with the platform while parts and vendors are still in full swing given this is the final year(s) the model will have any support), and having enough seat time learning my first mid-engine daily (auto and turbo also firsts) I am finding it to be more a peach once I replace "this" and cut "here" and add "that"...
What makes it 10/10 the "hardest modern car-" you've driven? Also based on which other cars?
I've been testing the new C8 corvette and GTS 4.0 cayman and boxster, have ample seat time with 2020 and 2016 boxster spyders, and the Italia spider, and the 4c still feels like the most "dial-able" despite feeling the most "underbuilt". Also, despite nearly comparing apples to oranges since the weight and drivetrain are absolutely different ballgames, the 4c still feels like the same sport, if you will. Apart from the obvious, the general dynamics are all "the same" in their quirky ways, from the septic and clinical Mclarens/Porsches to the rambunctious and rather sociopathic 4c with the Pirellis and hardcore-modded 2016 Boxster Spyder/GT4 "turned to 11" - they all "suffer" the same general quirks, just at different volumes.
I firmly believe if they had offered a manual in the 4c it would have been amazing, although very slow compared to "competition" since the DCT is actually a surprisingly great little kit on the track (mild driving really doesn't fit in the tune, I'm re-discovering with more detail). Once I get my HVAC upgraded to actually cool when temps hit over 95° (feels like Florida is just decades away from becoming a desert wasteland, today was 102° and AC on full blast still made me sweat), it is still tied with the Mclaren 650s Spider as the hands down best (exotic) daily drivers at their price points.
(Side note, the new C8 will change that for sure, as when the retard CEO'S of other manufacturers see the profit potential of returning to sports cars made by those with some balls and half an intuitive vision, I can imagine the upcoming swan song of sports cars will be like the horsepower wars that last decade will be famous for, and we will all win, again. In my case, that means a delightful buffet of drivetrain options for my already owned carbon tub, when the OEM goes kaput.)
 

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And tire pressure. I can't stop thinking about tire pressure. One PSI more or less makes the difference between a car that wants to kill you and one that doesn't. Never experienced anything like that with any other car.
This^^^
 

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Hi 4C Fans,

Something I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on is driving an Alfa 4C fast. I am talking about quiet back roads with lots of corners and plenty of bumps which we seek out on a weekend, not perfectly smooth race tracks.
Please don't confuse my criticism of driving the 4C fast to owning it generally.

It's a beautiful unique car, one that gives so much pleasure when driving whether it be slowly, in a spirited way and even when it's sitting in the garage. Let's put that aside for a bit and focus on what it's like to drive fast though, as that is one of the biggest challenges I am facing and it makes me wonder if others share this issue.

A bit of background first. At 40 years of age, I'm about 20 - 24 years removed from when I was a reckless youngster. Unfortunate (or fortunate) enough to grow up with cheap underpowered cars, my friends and I really did learn the drive the door handles off anything we could get our hands on being rural kids. These were the days where speed cameras were very rare and there were plenty of quiet roads.
When I look back at what we did with so little it kinda blows me away, but growing up, gaining responsibilities, having kids etc changes your outlook, as does the acquisition of modern cars.
My current thinking is too many years in modern refined cars (latest daily is a tuned Golf R mk 7.5) really makes the Alfa feel hard to drive. While modern AWD cars (and likely plenty of FWD and RWD cars too) have great grip, are very predictable and remove you from the driving experience, they are undoubtedly extremely easy to drive fast.

The worse a road gets to a point, the better these cars get, unless they've been lowered too much and are super stiff which is where the 4C comes in. Give a 20 year old version of me a 4C and it would be amazing, now, it just feels so different to what I am used to, borderline dangerous often when I really get the speed up.

Basically, I can't think of any road I would drive on where I am faster in my 4C than my Golf R which is a little depressing given what I feel its potential is.
It's a combination of the lack of front end stability, the very firm suspension, the manual steering and everything which makes it unique. I know we don't buy these only to drive fast, but it makes me wonder if something like a Cayman is the natural answer to the question I am seeking. What car provides the modern elements of great control with the benefits of feeling like a true sports car?

FWIW, my 4C has Alfworks intermediate blocks, lowered springs, rear uniballs and runs MPS 4S tyres, 255 rears with 215 fronts (on 9.5 and 8 inch rims).

Keen to get everyone's perspective. Maybe a few track days would help?
At least that would provide a safe way to really know its limits. I am making sure I get out in it at least once a week, driving in race mode as much as possible (without drivers aids).
If this is about getting used to the car, nothing will beat repetition and familiarity that should come with it.

Anyway, who suffers from this bogeyman and how did you deal with it?
Had a crack at TC this morning
first time @ 6000rpm launch
set race mode foot on the brake flat on the gas to 3500 and down shift to get 6000
woooooo hoooooooo :)
as to your question
driven all roads
i love the challenge on all surfaces
keeps you awake
 

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Hi 4C Fans,

Something I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on is driving an Alfa 4C fast. I am talking about quiet back roads with lots of corners and plenty of bumps which we seek out on a weekend, not perfectly smooth race tracks.
Please don't confuse my criticism of driving the 4C fast to owning it generally.

It's a beautiful unique car, one that gives so much pleasure when driving whether it be slowly, in a spirited way and even when it's sitting in the garage. Let's put that aside for a bit and focus on what it's like to drive fast though, as that is one of the biggest challenges I am facing and it makes me wonder if others share this issue.

A bit of background first. At 40 years of age, I'm about 20 - 24 years removed from when I was a reckless youngster. Unfortunate (or fortunate) enough to grow up with cheap underpowered cars, my friends and I really did learn the drive the door handles off anything we could get our hands on being rural kids. These were the days where speed cameras were very rare and there were plenty of quiet roads.
When I look back at what we did with so little it kinda blows me away, but growing up, gaining responsibilities, having kids etc changes your outlook, as does the acquisition of modern cars.
My current thinking is too many years in modern refined cars (latest daily is a tuned Golf R mk 7.5) really makes the Alfa feel hard to drive. While modern AWD cars (and likely plenty of FWD and RWD cars too) have great grip, are very predictable and remove you from the driving experience, they are undoubtedly extremely easy to drive fast.

The worse a road gets to a point, the better these cars get, unless they've been lowered too much and are super stiff which is where the 4C comes in. Give a 20 year old version of me a 4C and it would be amazing, now, it just feels so different to what I am used to, borderline dangerous often when I really get the speed up.

Basically, I can't think of any road I would drive on where I am faster in my 4C than my Golf R which is a little depressing given what I feel its potential is.
It's a combination of the lack of front end stability, the very firm suspension, the manual steering and everything which makes it unique. I know we don't buy these only to drive fast, but it makes me wonder if something like a Cayman is the natural answer to the question I am seeking. What car provides the modern elements of great control with the benefits of feeling like a true sports car?

FWIW, my 4C has Alfworks intermediate blocks, lowered springs, rear uniballs and runs MPS 4S tyres, 255 rears with 215 fronts (on 9.5 and 8 inch rims).

Keen to get everyone's perspective. Maybe a few track days would help?
At least that would provide a safe way to really know its limits. I am making sure I get out in it at least once a week, driving in race mode as much as possible (without drivers aids).
If this is about getting used to the car, nothing will beat repetition and familiarity that should come with it.

Anyway, who suffers from this bogeyman and how did you deal with it?
You’ve done good things with your car. If you check your alignment you might find that a toe adjustment will remove the bumpsteer that it seems your experiencing and taking away some caster will remove the understeer. I’ve found the car to be very predictable after having a specialist alignment shop work on those things (took a bunch of tests to get it to where I liked it). Other people have widened the track effectively, but it really helps to know how to tune a car when you start doing more. Good luck, enjoy the car, and make some memories!
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Hi Lads,

First of all, great discussion. There are some real gems of insight here, I won't go through each post as it will be too many to quote, but I have got a lot out of it, as well as the great summary someone did.

A few people clearly missed a bit in my first post as I made the mods done clear, but having to do these mods was still suggested. Maybe I do them twice? :)

What is made clear really clear here comes down to the fact lightweight, stiff, mid engined RWD high boosted, small engined cars are a completely different beast to drive!

I appreciate those chiming in who have similar fast daily drivers too. It is comforting others admit they are faster in their S3's, their Civic type R's and other, even those with thousands of km's on these don't find they are easy to drive fast.

Finally, there is zero chance I am selling it for a Cayman. As the great Jordan Peterson would say - life isn't meant to be easy bucko, get used to it!
In a homogenised world where every damn service or device we buy is designed to reduce thinking, reduce movement, reduce effort and make everything as "easy" as possible, dealing with the challenges the 4C throws (even the electric gremlins) is a refreshing change.

Nest step is ensuring the alignment is where it's supposed to be, but If solving the problem otherwise is about getting out and driving more, well that's one I am happy to take on.
 

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If you want to drive a 4C fast to the point of experiencing loss of control....but safely....do some auto crosses.They also will show you how well a 4C works when driven with a smooth style....ease on brakes, ease on power, use braking to get the car to turn in and stick like glue. I use R mode when auto crossing....you can see what happens when you drive the car with precision....and what happens when you screw up. Worst that can happen is you kill a cone or two.
I find that if you drive a 4C like you had an on/off switch for power and on/off for brakes same way....you will be under steering, over steering, all over the place. I remember a famous race driver that said instead of stomping on the brakes and gas pedal....you used it like you had an egg under your foot....you would go a lot faster. Feel what the car is doing through your butt and hands. Keep your head upright and look ahead a couple of turns so you are setting up for the next turn or two as you connect those turns. If you are only focusing on the turn you are in you will be in the wrong place/line and pace for the next turn. Another useful "tool" is a wet parking lot or an autocross in the rain.
 

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I used to have a tuned Golf 7R (400 hp), man that was an easy car to drive
A monkey can drive that car fast
Then I bought a 4C : wtf this car is an adrenaline syringe, really hard to drive fast (I have installed shims and tuned to 300 hp)
I now mostly drive my 991.2 GT3, much easier to get used to and also very rewarding
I drive my 4C as a weekend car and it still gives me the rush I seek :)
 

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I used to have a tuned Golf 7R (400 hp), man that was an easy car to drive
A monkey can drive that car fast
Then I bought a 4C : wtf this car is an adrenaline syringe, really hard to drive fast (I have installed shims and tuned to 300 hp)
I now mostly drive my 991.2 GT3, much easier to get used to and also very rewarding
I drive my 4C as a weekend car and it still gives me the rush I seek :)
If you had to own only one car as a we toy: what would you choose between the alfa and the gt3?
 

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That is a very hard one
I use the GT3 as a daily driver, I can even go grocery shopping with it
I think Porsche GT cars are the best compromise to drive every day, 4C as a daily is too much (for me)
 

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That is a very hard one
I use the GT3 as a daily driver, I can even go grocery shopping with it
I think Porsche GT cars are the best compromise to drive every day, 4C as a daily is too much (for me)
I think cipsony meant, if you had to have one weekend/track toy, and had a daily as well.
 

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Along with the 4C, I currently own two other mid-engine sports cars (NSX and Cayman S), and track them as well. In the past, I've owned both rear-engine and front-engine sports cars.

Based on my own personal experience, the 4C behaves quite differently from front-engine sports cars. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that the 4C is more difficult to drive compared to other mid-engine sports cars I have owned/driven. Yes, imperfections on the road are more amplified in the 4C due to its narrow tires, lightness, and short wheelbase. Nevertheless, I don't think that it's unforgiving.

For example, I have had many situations where I would enter the corner too hot, and lift the throttle/trail brake in the middle of the turn. In those situations, it's relatively easy to predict when the rear is going to lose traction. And when it does, it's not as more difficult to correct it than with the NSX or the Cayman S. In fact, all my "spun outs" happened with my NSX where once I lost traction, it was game over. I wonder if the sensation of rawness of the 4C is giving the impression that it's a harder car to drive. It took me some time to get used to its sharpness - it's especially noticeable when you drive it back to back after the Cayman S - but once I got used to it, I found the 4C to be as forgiving as the Cayman S to drive fast.

One area I can pinpoint where I do have harder time with the 4C vs the NSX and the Cayman S is modulating the throttle input due to the turbo spool between 2K-4K rpm. However, this is more related to the inherent difference between NA cars and FI cars.

Just my 2 cents.
 

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Along with the 4C, I currently own two other mid-engine sports cars (NSX and Cayman S), and track them as well. In the past, I've owned both rear-engine and front-engine sports cars.

Based on my own personal experience, the 4C behaves quite differently from front-engine sports cars. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that the 4C is more difficult to drive compared to other mid-engine sports cars I have owned/driven. Yes, imperfections on the road are more amplified in the 4C due to its narrow tires, lightness, and short wheelbase. Nevertheless, I don't think that it's unforgiving.

For example, I have had many situations where I would enter the corner too hot, and lift the throttle/trail brake in the middle of the turn. In those situations, it's relatively easy to predict when the rear is going to lose traction. And when it does, it's not as more difficult to correct it than with the NSX or the Cayman S. In fact, all my "spun outs" happened with my NSX where once I lost traction, it was game over. I wonder if the sensation of rawness of the 4C is giving the impression that it's a harder car to drive. It took me some time to get used to its sharpness - it's especially noticeable when you drive it back to back after the Cayman S - but once I got used to it, I found the 4C to be as forgiving as the Cayman S to drive fast.

One area I can pinpoint where I do have harder time with the 4C vs the NSX and the Cayman S is modulating the throttle input due to the turbo spool between 2K-4K rpm. However, this is more related to the inherent difference between NA cars and FI cars.

Just my 2 cents.
I also own both a 4C and a Cayman S. Driven back to back the Porsche just feels numb and lethargic—I always considered it a driver’s car until I got the Alfa. The Cayman still has huge amounts of grip and it is more balanced and composed, but now I’m bored with it... Probably because of the lack of torque...
 
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