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Gents (and ladies if there are any here), we have a to talk………

Something is amiss in the Alfa tuning landscape, if you are a numbers man (or woman) then you may have figured it out already, it’s pretty clear the cynicism from some people shows I am not alone prying into this.

Basically, there are a lot of tuning companies who are claiming big numbers from their tunes. 20, 30 and even over 40% extra power is available from a tune, with power and dyno claims all over the place. We have experts who build motors and turbos stating 280 – 300 hp is about the most this motor can make while using the stock turbo, while others selling tunes who suggest bolt ons (without a turbo upgrade) can achieve up to 360hp – note all these numbers are at the crank.

Normally these kinds of increases are easy enough to verify, they translate through timeslips with cars significantly faster down the ¼ mile (see my Golf R example below). If traction is an issue, that is no real problem as higher power cars will always show a clear advantage in the top end of the ¼ mile with a much stronger mph.

The problem is that this is just not happening, well at least in the cases we have on the forum. If you have not had a look, check out the spreadsheet on the first page of the ¼ mile thread. Note this is 4+ years of data: Official 4C Quarter Mile Time Database

First for some context of what I think we should expect from a tuned car, let’s use my Golf R…..

The manufacturers of my Golf R tune (APR) claim it takes the car from 294 hp (measured by them at the crank) to 370 hp (also measured by them at the crank), which is an increase in power of 26%.

Most importantly, rather than taking these numbers for granted APR back it up with 0-100kph, ¼ mile and 100-200 kph data, before and after the tune.

While my Golf R is a wagon (and one with a very daggy towbar I should add) and the car APR run is a lighter hatch, I have matched these times myself to within a few hundreds of a second. Basically, the tune walks the walk.

So, what kind of increases are we talking about?

When increasing the Golf R’s power by 26% with a stage 1 tune and no other mods it goes from:

A 12.8 to a 12.0 ¼ mile (an increase of 8 tenths)

A 105mph terminal speed to a 111mph terminal speed (6 mph increase)

A 100-200kph times of 15.0 sec to 10.8 seconds (a 4.2 sec increase)

If you are looking at this thinking “Well that is an AWD car, it’s different”, that is not the case. Sure, it makes a difference in traction but for terminal speed and the 100-200 kph times whether a car is AWD or RWD makes no difference at all, as the increases should be relative.

Now, if we go back to the 4C’s and the ¼ mile thread barely any of these cars are actually faster than stock, however to be fair, Alfaworks does appear to be the clear standout.

If we look at the fastest examples of all the tunes we have the times and order below:

*Note, I am deliberately excluding Jamie from Alfaworks own car here as it has a hybrid turbo.

Alfaworks stage 1 – 11.9 @ 114 mph

Eurocompulsion stage 3 (with a bevvy of bolt ons) – 12.3 @ 112 mph

Stock (+ exhaust) – 12.3 @ 110mph

Eurocompulsion stage 2 (with a bevvy of bolt ons) – 12.3 @ 110 mph

Tork stage 1 (with a bevvy of bolt ons) – 12.3 @ 109mph

Pogea stage 1 – 12.4 @ 111 mph

Stock (no tune) – 12.5 @ 109mph

Eurocompulsion stage 1– 12.8 @ 106 mph

In summary for the above, the Alfaworks stage 1 car beats a completely stock 4C by .6 of a second and gains 5 mph at the top end. Every other car (even with masses of bolt ons) beats a stock car by no more than .3 of a second and 3 mph.

If you want to pour more water on the fire, once you bolt an exhaust on the stock car, no tuned car (apart from Alfaworks) has a better time down the ¼ mile at all, and the fastest only adds 2 mph in terminal speed!

Not sure about anyone else, but I’m a bit suspicious whether those cars are gaining up to 40% in power……..

From the ¼ mile data we have at hand it seems if you want maximum value for money, buy an Alfaworks tune or just do nothing and bolt on an exhaust.

*Please note, I have no affiliation with Alfwaworks and have never contacted them. I own a Pogea stage 1 ECU, I am just calling the above based on the data others have compiled. None of this data is mine, apart from the Golf R.

Ok though, let’s be fair. There could be all kinds of variables to the above. While correction factors have been used to account for temperature, altitude etc etc we still have the issues of different fuel, different drivers, different weights – U.S vs Europe vs Aus cars and so on.

To combat this, I’d like to set up:

The ultimate 4C tuning test.

I am more than happy to blow a bit of money and a lot of time on this, if it means getting to the bottom of the tuning saga.

My plan is to get all the variations of tunes together (different ECUs) and test them on my car against the stock ECU. I will test them all using Dragy to measure 0-100, ¼ mile and 100-200kph at the same place on the same day, at the same temperature to remove all variables which will mean reliable, factual, applicable real world “head to head” data.

The following day I will put them all on the dyno, same day, same dyno, in the cold of Tasmania’s winter to keep the temps down. Allowing the car at least 20 minutes between each ECU, giving the car time to lose excess heat. Two power for runs each car for the same head to head data.

My engine is stock apart from a V2 intake and will use 98 fuel (US 93).

For the suppliers of the tunes, this gives them an opportunity to have their tuned ECU’s tested back to back on the same car, on the same day with the same driver, then the equivalent on the dyno the follow day, removing all the BS.

For those confident in their product it is the ultimate advertising and bragging rights for the tuners, I’ll be posting every detail up here, which the tuners are more than welcome to use to their advantage to advertise their product.

What do I need from you?

I currently have a stock ECU and a Pogea stage 1. However, I would love to get my hands on any other ECU’s which are tuned – especially if they appear in the above list.

I am happy to email the different tuning companies to try to set it up, however I would really appreciate the help of anyone in Aus who would be happy to lend out their tuned ECU for 2 weeks if the tuning companies won’t play ball. Obviously, this only works if you have a spare ECU (as I do) no one wants a car stuck in their driveway which they cannot drive.

To compensate I am happy to deposit the value of the ECU to your account before you send it, ie if you paid $2000 for your ECU you will get $2025 deposited from me before you send the ECU. The $25 is to cover the registered freight cost, the rest is for you to hold onto in the case I do a runner.

Once you get the ECU back, the money comes back to me.It doesn't take a genius to work out I don't want to be left $5000 - $6000 down with 3 spare ECU's!

Obviously, this will take a while to organise, so nothing will happen for at least a month or so, but please let me know if you are interested.

While one could say you gain little, there is a special place in history for those that fought the BS, strived for the truth, and really tried to make the world a better place. If you want your name going down in history with all the greats like Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln, Paul Hogan, Chuck Norris, well, being involved in this would be a good place to start 😊.

Note too, I will be pitching the exact same deal to all the tuning companies. Their ECU’s will be “paid” for in full, but once tested I will send them back expecting my money back. As per the above, they are free to use all the data, ie dyno numbers, acceleration data etc to their advantage. I will simply loan their ECU like anyone else’s and I will bear all dyno costs etc etc.

Anyway, let me know if you are interested. No need to pull any ECU’s out of your cars yet, it’s about lining up the ducks first. If anyone offers their ECU’s in Aus, I will design the tuning and Dragy days so I have all overseas ECU’s here first, so I really limit the time anyone tuned ECU is gone for.

If all goes well, the longest I would need one for is 2 weeks door to door.
 

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Once installed, ECU is locked to the car.
I know EuroCompulsion will re-flash the tune for $250 (US), but that's a $500 cost to make this scenario happen plus additional time out of the donor car. Maybe you could get the tuning companies to waive that fee and expedite the re-flash? I also remember reading once upon a time about a "learning" period for the new tune to acquaint itself with the vehicle, so getting results might not be as easy as popping in a different ECU and having it at 100% power right away.

Another option might be to have multiple owners who have both their tuned ECU and their stock ECU meet up for a day to test. Not as scientific as placing all the ECUs in 1 vehicle, but the logistics might be a lot easier to manage. And if each car has a "stock" baseline you would still be able to show the delta in time/speed between that and the tuned results in a same day/same track experiment.
 

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Gents (and ladies if there are any here), we have a to talk………

Something is amiss in the Alfa tuning landscape, if you are a numbers man (or woman) then you may have figured it out already, it’s pretty clear the cynicism from some people shows I am not alone prying into this.

Basically, there are a lot of tuning companies who are claiming big numbers from their tunes. 20, 30 and even over 40% extra power is available from a tune, with power and dyno claims all over the place. We have experts who build motors and turbos stating 280 – 300 hp is about the most this motor can make while using the stock turbo, while others selling tunes who suggest bolt ons (without a turbo upgrade) can achieve up to 360hp – note all these numbers are at the crank.

Normally these kinds of increases are easy enough to verify, they translate through timeslips with cars significantly faster down the ¼ mile (see my Golf R example below). If traction is an issue, that is no real problem as higher power cars will always show a clear advantage in the top end of the ¼ mile with a much stronger mph.

The problem is that this is just not happening, well at least in the cases we have on the forum. If you have not had a look, check out the spreadsheet on the first page of the ¼ mile thread. Note this is 4+ years of data: Official 4C Quarter Mile Time Database

First for some context of what I think we should expect from a tuned car, let’s use my Golf R…..

The manufacturers of my Golf R tune (APR) claim it takes the car from 294 hp (measured by them at the crank) to 370 hp (also measured by them at the crank), which is an increase in power of 26%.

Most importantly, rather than taking these numbers for granted APR back it up with 0-100kph, ¼ mile and 100-200 kph data, before and after the tune.

While my Golf R is a wagon (and one with a very daggy towbar I should add) and the car APR run is a lighter hatch, I have matched these times myself to within a few hundreds of a second. Basically, the tune walks the walk.

So, what kind of increases are we talking about?

When increasing the Golf R’s power by 26% with a stage 1 tune and no other mods it goes from:

A 12.8 to a 12.0 ¼ mile (an increase of 8 tenths)

A 105mph terminal speed to a 111mph terminal speed (6 mph increase)

A 100-200kph times of 15.0 sec to 10.8 seconds (a 4.2 sec increase)

If you are looking at this thinking “Well that is an AWD car, it’s different”, that is not the case. Sure, it makes a difference in traction but for terminal speed and the 100-200 kph times whether a car is AWD or RWD makes no difference at all, as the increases should be relative.

Now, if we go back to the 4C’s and the ¼ mile thread barely any of these cars are actually faster than stock, however to be fair, Alfaworks does appear to be the clear standout.

If we look at the fastest examples of all the tunes we have the times and order below:

*Note, I am deliberately excluding Jamie from Alfaworks own car here as it has a hybrid turbo.

Alfaworks stage 1 – 11.9 @ 114 mph

Eurocompulsion stage 3 (with a bevvy of bolt ons) – 12.3 @ 112 mph

Stock (+ exhaust) – 12.3 @ 110mph

Eurocompulsion stage 2 (with a bevvy of bolt ons) – 12.3 @ 110 mph

Tork stage 1 (with a bevvy of bolt ons) – 12.3 @ 109mph

Pogea stage 1 – 12.4 @ 111 mph

Stock (no tune) – 12.5 @ 109mph

Eurocompulsion stage 1– 12.8 @ 106 mph

In summary for the above, the Alfaworks stage 1 car beats a completely stock 4C by .6 of a second and gains 5 mph at the top end. Every other car (even with masses of bolt ons) beats a stock car by no more than .3 of a second and 3 mph.

If you want to pour more water on the fire, once you bolt an exhaust on the stock car, no tuned car (apart from Alfaworks) has a better time down the ¼ mile at all, and the fastest only adds 2 mph in terminal speed!

Not sure about anyone else, but I’m a bit suspicious whether those cars are gaining up to 40% in power……..

From the ¼ mile data we have at hand it seems if you want maximum value for money, buy an Alfaworks tune or just do nothing and bolt on an exhaust.

*Please note, I have no affiliation with Alfwaworks and have never contacted them. I own a Pogea stage 1 ECU, I am just calling the above based on the data others have compiled. None of this data is mine, apart from the Golf R.

Ok though, let’s be fair. There could be all kinds of variables to the above. While correction factors have been used to account for temperature, altitude etc etc we still have the issues of different fuel, different drivers, different weights – U.S vs Europe vs Aus cars and so on.

To combat this, I’d like to set up:

The ultimate 4C tuning test.

I am more than happy to blow a bit of money and a lot of time on this, if it means getting to the bottom of the tuning saga.

My plan is to get all the variations of tunes together (different ECUs) and test them on my car against the stock ECU. I will test them all using Dragy to measure 0-100, ¼ mile and 100-200kph at the same place on the same day, at the same temperature to remove all variables which will mean reliable, factual, applicable real world “head to head” data.

The following day I will put them all on the dyno, same day, same dyno, in the cold of Tasmania’s winter to keep the temps down. Allowing the car at least 20 minutes between each ECU, giving the car time to lose excess heat. Two power for runs each car for the same head to head data.

My engine is stock apart from a V2 intake and will use 98 fuel (US 93).

For the suppliers of the tunes, this gives them an opportunity to have their tuned ECU’s tested back to back on the same car, on the same day with the same driver, then the equivalent on the dyno the follow day, removing all the BS.

For those confident in their product it is the ultimate advertising and bragging rights for the tuners, I’ll be posting every detail up here, which the tuners are more than welcome to use to their advantage to advertise their product.

What do I need from you?

I currently have a stock ECU and a Pogea stage 1. However, I would love to get my hands on any other ECU’s which are tuned – especially if they appear in the above list.

I am happy to email the different tuning companies to try to set it up, however I would really appreciate the help of anyone in Aus who would be happy to lend out their tuned ECU for 2 weeks if the tuning companies won’t play ball. Obviously, this only works if you have a spare ECU (as I do) no one wants a car stuck in their driveway which they cannot drive.

To compensate I am happy to deposit the value of the ECU to your account before you send it, ie if you paid $2000 for your ECU you will get $2025 deposited from me before you send the ECU. The $25 is to cover the registered freight cost, the rest is for you to hold onto in the case I do a runner.

Once you get the ECU back, the money comes back to me.It doesn't take a genius to work out I don't want to be left $5000 - $6000 down with 3 spare ECU's!

Obviously, this will take a while to organise, so nothing will happen for at least a month or so, but please let me know if you are interested.

While one could say you gain little, there is a special place in history for those that fought the BS, strived for the truth, and really tried to make the world a better place. If you want your name going down in history with all the greats like Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln, Paul Hogan, Chuck Norris, well, being involved in this would be a good place to start 😊.

Note too, I will be pitching the exact same deal to all the tuning companies. Their ECU’s will be “paid” for in full, but once tested I will send them back expecting my money back. As per the above, they are free to use all the data, ie dyno numbers, acceleration data etc to their advantage. I will simply loan their ECU like anyone else’s and I will bear all dyno costs etc etc.

Anyway, let me know if you are interested. No need to pull any ECU’s out of your cars yet, it’s about lining up the ducks first. If anyone offers their ECU’s in Aus, I will design the tuning and Dragy days so I have all overseas ECU’s here first, so I really limit the time anyone tuned ECU is gone for.

If all goes well, the longest I would need one for is 2 weeks door to door.
I know of at least one other forum member that proposed to do this, but it never materialized. I wish you good luck on the experiment.
 

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So Ben what is the suspicion about the power? The car too light and any more power doesn’t translate ? Would like to hear
 

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So Ben what is the suspicion about the power? The car too light and any more power doesn’t translate ? Would like to hear
I think the suspicion is the following:
  • On the dyno the car is pushed for just a few seconds in one gear only with less resistance on the wheels. The tuner is leaving the fan over the IC to cool it properly. The test takes only a few seconds (2,3, ...4). In this case the IC copes with cooling the air and the engine gets cold air --> cold air = the turbo can be pushed more --> bigger pressure + colder air = more hp.
  • On the street the engine is pushed more: even on a 1/4 mille test you have to accelerate for full 12 seconds --> first 1,2 gears is ok but after 6 seconds the turbo is hot, the air gets hotter and so on.
  • On the race track: The turbo heats extremely fast and in turn it heats the air and so on --> you end up having timing retard + more hot air + more timing retard +... you end up having a sub optimum AFR and ignition timing --> This way you can end having even less power than oem.

Solution: Make a few consecutive dyno tests without cooling the engine and see what happens. If the power starts to drop then the map has to be adjusted untill everything is constant.
 

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The 100-200 Km draggy measurements are very relevant as they also take in consideration the slope.
I don't think you will receive any ECU from any tuner (maybe from Alfa workshop ... maybe).

A solution would be for a few owners from Australia to have a meeting and measure the weight of the cars. You can add some weights to make the even and then test them for 100-200.
In my country is quite easy to measure the weight accurately: just go to a company that collects metals because they have car scales for their trucks --> These are quite accurate.
Other option: Find a tuner that installs suspensions: they usually have corner weighting scales.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Thanks guys, I am not surprised to hear this has been tackled before, it was clear I wasn't the only one dubious of the claims.

If suppliers of the tunes don't think their tunes can make power once the car is hot on a dyno, I really do wonder why they'd bother to quote a certain figure that can't be repeated.
I'm assuming there is no asterix on the websites which states:
*Please don't make any attempt to match the claimed figure will be virtually impossible due to the heat the car generates".....

Re the locking of devices, yep, that's a major buzz kill, makes it really tough to get ECUs from other people, so that is a bummer.

I'll write to the tuners and see if I can get their ECU's. There's actually 2 ways to do this, an easy way and a hard way.
The easy way is to have the tuners cooperate, see this as an opportunity and wave the coding fee. I would still pay for the ECU's upfront and pay all shipping costs. I will certainly be investing more time than the tuning companies in this.

The other way is to utilise consumer law, which does get a little tricky when talking about International trade. Locally (in Australia) the providers of a product have a responsibility to ensure that the product they are selling matches the claims they make, and thus expectations of the customer. If I purchase an ECU which clearly states a power figure or an increase from the original and that claim is not met, the product is not fit for purpose. Here at least we are protected by the ACCC.

While the ACCC doesn't have any International powers, we do have a much more valuable power which is "the power of public opinion". If I decide to simply buy a product and later ask for a refund if the product fails to meet expectations, then it will hardly be good for the reputation of the said companies.

In the case that all these ECUs do perform and results impress, well, I'll be $5000 + in the hole with enough ECU's that I'll never have to worry about fault codes again.

If the suppliers of the tunes have a genuine issue with the cars being dynoed I am happy to just utilise Dragy (acceleration times).
 

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The 100-200 Km draggy measurements are very relevant as they also take in consideration the slope.
I don't think you will receive any ECU from any tuner (maybe from Alfa workshop ... maybe).

A solution would be for a few owners from Australia to have a meeting and measure the weight of the cars. You can add some weights to make the even and then test them for 100-200.
In my country is quite easy to measure the weight accurately: just go to a company that collects metals because they have car scales for their trucks --> These are quite accurate.
Other option: Find a tuner that installs suspensions: they usually have corner weighting scales.
Not so simple...nowhere you can do this legally on public roads and all racetracks where you can hit 200+ are all downhill runs on their main straights, Eastern Creek, Phillip Is and Bathurst (if you can get a run on one of their closed circuit days...expensive) and each have inconsistent gradients down their lengths. Ben is about 1600km and a little stretch of water called Bass Straight away from me and civilisation (haha, though I think he has the opposite view about the civilisation thing). I think we only have one other Tasmanian member too. Don’t know what Baskerville is like but Symmons Plains in Tassie doesn’t have a long enough back straight given the slow hairpin entry to it.
A quiet length of straight private road is the best bet or get a run in the Targa Tasmania...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Not so simple...nowhere you can do this legally on public roads and all racetracks where you can hit 200+ are all downhill runs on their main straights. Eastern Creek, Phillip Is and Bathurst (if you can get a run on one of their closed circuit days...expensive). Ben is about 1600km and a little stretch of water called Bass Straight away from me and civilisation (haha, though I think he has the opposite view about the civilisation thing). I think we only have one other Tasmanian member too.
The best option in Tasmania may be Symmons Plains raceway unless I can find someone with a private airstrip, not like too many planes are flying at the moment.
Symmons Plains is very flat, but the long straight is curved so its by no means perfect.

I'd be happy to send my Dragy device to others, but obviously not comfortable giving anyone the brief to go out and do a 100-200 kph run!

Another option is our drag strip. Depending on the tune, the 4C should need 500 - 600m to achieve 200 kph. The strip length is over 1000m, however I'd imagine they may have some reservations about keeping the throttle pinned into the braking area.
 

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Much respect for what you are trying to do. I seriously doubt that any of the tuners will play ball. They have nothing to gain, and everything to lose. It’s in their best interest to keep selling fairy tales.

I do believe there are some marginal gains to be had with forced induction tuning (even though it is a fool’s errand on normally aspirated cars—I’ve been down that road). Please let us know which tuners support this project. Their transparency will likely affect influence my decision on which ECU I purchase.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Bit of an update here, both Eurocompulsion and Scara73 have responded to me.

Top marks for both for customer service, especially Eurocompulsion who responded very quickly.
I'm surprised Scara73 isn't discussed more as his services seem really cost effective. As English isn't his native language trying to explain what I am trying to do with the test is a bit difficult.

The way this is going is that I see the tests rolled out over a longer period ( a few months). Basically, it would mean the perfect back to back data isn't there, but the same car, same driver, same road, same conditions (I'd make sure temps were the same) would still apply.
I am thinking that if I ran each car on the dyno weeks apart it also allows adequate "learning" time between ECU's too, with each car getting a colder "optimum" run and another once hot.

The worst case scenario here is that I will end up with stock vs Pogea vs another ECU (even if I have to pay full price), the best outcome of course would be to have 4 computers tested.
Really makes it harder that these are uniquely tied to the cars as much harder to sell them afterwards.
 

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Bit of an update here, both Eurocompulsion and Scara73 have responded to me.

Top marks for both for customer service, especially Eurocompulsion who responded very quickly.
I'm surprised Scara73 isn't discussed more as his services seem really cost effective. As English isn't his native language trying to explain what I am trying to do with the test is a bit difficult.

The way this is going is that I see the tests rolled out over a longer period ( a few months). Basically, it would mean the perfect back to back data isn't there, but the same car, same driver, same road, same conditions (I'd make sure temps were the same) would still apply.
I am thinking that if I ran each car on the dyno weeks apart it also allows adequate "learning" time between ECU's too, with each car getting a colder "optimum" run and another once hot.

The worst case scenario here is that I will end up with stock vs Pogea vs another ECU (even if I have to pay full price), the best outcome of course would be to have 4 computers tested.
Really makes it harder that these are uniquely tied to the cars as much harder to sell them afterwards.
Ill buy an ECU from you post test, assuming the results have some improvement over stock
 

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Brilliant, that's what I want to hear. I'm happy to pay an "unlocking" fee which a few merchants offer too.
Perhaps one of the sellers could provide it free considering you are only using it for testing. I do want a clone so i can go back to the old one.. Happy to wait before i start modding my car.
 

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The other way is to utilise consumer law, which does get a little tricky when talking about International trade. Locally (in Australia) the providers of a product have a responsibility to ensure that the product they are selling matches the claims they make, and thus expectations of the customer. If I purchase an ECU which clearly states a power figure or an increase from the original and that claim is not met, the product is not fit for purpose. Here at least we are protected by the ACCC.
I too applaud your ambition to do this project. I just wanted to note that every vendor claim I've read states "up to +XX hp"; which leaves them open to have their tune add anywhere from +1 hp to their top claim number.

So, your test would put a real comparison and a great tool for us to decide which one to purchase!
 

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While top HP and Torque figures are OK....they don't tell how the car puts it to ground. Once the tests are made I would still like to see a roll test...say 50-100 or..... If made with the stock ECU on the same car and than with the ECU on the same car that would be useful information. What everyone is looking for is how much more HP and torque does a given ECU make over the same car stock actual...not manufacturers specs.
 

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Has anyone looked at Gulietta QF forums to see if there is more tuning data/results/quarter mile times there? They are using the same engine...
 
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