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Tramlining resolved

18K views 74 replies 14 participants last post by  Alfanut 
#1 · (Edited)
Gents,
I can reveal that, at least for my car, there was a surprisingly simple solution for the hopeless tramlining: 15mm rear spacers, one at each side.

My car during the test had:
OEM 18/19" combo
OEM Pirelli AR
AW intermediate spacers(but now uprated to race for more camber)
1mm toe in on each side
I have not tried car without AW spacers, had them installed before I picked up the car. Even with these, tramlining was close to intolerable.

After installation, nothing else changed, it was more or less gone, by that I mean it was feeling like a normal sports car, tendency, but far from intolerable. On top of that, I did not notice downsides at trackday, possibly better handling, something that surprised me. So for now, no downsides, and I have been running it for 3-4000km. I also have fellow 4C owner with 17/18" who did it, and it was better, but difference maybe not as huge as mine.

Have thought long and hard why, not that it matters since result is good, but my hypothesis is:
Outside of rear rubber is now approx 10mm outside front. This mean that front used to be 10mm outside. On a uneven road, this will cause front wheels to start climbing before rear, and by that steering will be self amplifying.

But this should be tested by more owners before we can say that it's a general fix.

EDIT:
I tested and ran mostly of the 3-4000km with Pirelli AR (OEM) tires.
Recently I changed to Michelin Pilot Sport 4, hoped for a further improvement. Actually I did not notice a big improvement in tramlining, but they are better and more comfortable.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
That's an interesting result.

The problem with things like a "general fix," is that while some have "hopeless tramlining" (even after attempting the most common fixes...blocks & toe in), others (me) have no tramlining with pure stock cars. And yes, we have plenty of "English B road" types of roads.

Still, glad you resolved your problem. I hope it helps others. Worth a try for those who are frustrated.

P.S. When I say no tramlining, I'm not talking about roads with truck ruts where any car would tramline. I'm talking about randomly bumpy roads, where I feel the bumps in the steering wheel, but the car is not moving all over the road.
 
#3 ·
Thanks, would be great if it could solve the problem for others.

It would be interesting regarding hypothesis if you bothered measuring the distance from outer edge of wheels and compare front and rear. I simply measured with a measuring tape and aimed along the wheel with a camera, then zoomed to see the number. So very poor accuracy, I would expect ±5mm, but nevertheless an indication. My result was:
Front: 1847mm
Rear: 1869mm

Whatever that is in inches and fractions.....:p
 
#47 ·

Thanks, would be great if it could solve the problem for others.

It would be interesting regarding hypothesis if you bothered measuring the distance from outer edge of wheels and compare front and rear. I simply measured with a measuring tape and aimed along the wheel with a camera, then zoomed to see the number. So very poor accuracy, I would expect ±5mm, but nevertheless an indication. My result was:
Front: 1847mm
Rear: 1869mm

Whatever that is in inches and fractions.....:p
My car is 1859 front and 1838 rear!
 
#9 ·
That's notoriously monitored. I have always have a digital gauge in the car, since I do not trust the manometers at service stations. Slightly anal, yes.... In short, I'm quite sure that I have done what I can regarding things similar to this, feel that I have done my homework properly - and then some.

OK, so you have a softer rear suspension. Could be a part of the solution maybe....
 
#10 ·
Subscribed untill somebody else tries and confirms.

Sent from my F8332 using Tapatalk
See if you can borrow a pair if you have a friend with spacer on all 4 wheels.

I bought 4, then in a strike of luck I decided to try with only two mounted. So, I handed the two remaining ones over to my friend, and asked him to test. He lives some hours drive from me, and told me on the phone "there is a difference. You're not getting them back". But as mentioned, I do not think the difference is as big as mine, since I have the larger wheels, and his car was not too bad in the first place, after AW spacers install(Bad before that).

Note1: You have to remove the small bolt holding the brake disc, at least on my spacers.
Note2: My friend experienced some vibration, so be very thorough when mounting them.
 
#11 ·
Well, adding just rear spacers is consistent with things one can do to mitigate tramlining.

If you popped in here and said you added all four or just fronts, and it got better, I'd have a headache.

I have tramlining only on roads where there are two well-worn ruts from years of cars wearing down the road, and some of these roads are highways/freeways where no one would call them B roads. It's mild rut, road crown, mild rut spanning the road config that demands two hands.

Most B roads and back roads, as we call them in my area, are off camber for drainage, but I don't get any tramlining. The basic camber settings in the stock race suspension shrug off the negative camber on any B roads I've been on.
.
 
#24 ·
Things like changing the tires or pressures to cure the tramlining... Common! There is no physical explanation for such suppositions. It's just a minor change in feeling and a major placebo effect. These tramlining issues are not present on other cars because they are all TOE IN on the front (10, 15, 20... minutes per side) and not because all other car brands are using michelin tires.
 
#26 ·
You can't isolate toe in. Most other cars have more caster too. My Miata has 7 degrees. The 4C has what? 2 degrees? Caster makes the tires resist turning. When going forward that is. Caster makes the steering wheel feel like it wants to stay on center, and return strongly to center from a turn. Conversely, caster deadens turn in.

Seems pretty clear that some like what others dislike. I'm imagining that if I drove some of these killer cars, I'd say "this is perfect."

If I had a car trying to kill me... to where I wouldn't even drive in the fast lane... that car would be gone in a heartbeat.

These threads have been going on for four years. It just gets silly.
 
#27 ·
It’s all a compromise. You improve one aspect to the detriment of another. Arriving at the best compromise is a personal thing. I believe I’ve found one I’m satisfied with.
Just don’t aim to completely eliminate the tramlining and steering kick when hitting a bump in the road. It’s part of the character of the thing.
 
#29 ·
So 1mm toe-in on the front either side + intermediate blocks. Only a half a degree of front negative camber. How does enthusiastic cornering feel? Do you feel you have to turn the wheel a little more for the same line into a corner?( A little more indirect?). How is front tyre wear? Is the inside of the tyre wearing evenly with outside? (Assuming you regularly find twisting roads on which to drive)
Thanks. This data will be helpful for others with same issue as yourself.
 
#31 ·
0.5° was horrible on track, it under steered like a pig just thinking about increasing throttle to above "neutral" around 2/3 out of a curve. So fun spoiled.

On enthusiastic driving it was not that horrible, as throttle often is in neutral trough the curve, when you "hit it", curve is usually more or less finished. But if you increased throttle mid curve, it started to under steer.

That said, it was relatively safe for less experienced driver, if it under steered and you "chicken out" and decreased throttle again, it would bite into curve again. If you totally let go of throttle, it would over steer, so not totally fool proof.

When I changed to Michelin, there was plenty left on front tires, so not that easy to spot, but looked quite thoroughly, and it was even over the whole surface. Rear had surprisingly even wear as well.

I have now changed to AW Race spec to increase camber. The two top spacers is decreased:
Upper front: 3mm
Upper rear: 4.3mm
Steering rod adjusted: approx 3mm.
Are not sure what this will translate into. Have not had professional alignment check yet. Regarding 3mm decrease of steering rod, we measured toe as good as we could before and after, and 3mm gave approx same toe, maybe slightly less toe in:
Before: 4mm total(compared to 2mm in the old pro alignment check)
After: 2mm total

Increasing camber made a huge positive difference exiting curve.
 
#30 ·
FWIW I adjusted my toe to an even 0. It helped significantly although, as philster pointed out, it doesn’t help much on roads with severe tire indentations in the asphalt. But on everyday roads I found it helped dramatically. A simple solution for me. But having said that, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m no track racer and I know less than nothing about technical track driving etc. It just feels more stable in a straight line. So take mine with a grain of salt
 
#36 ·
An update.
Race AW blocks increased camber from -0.5 to a bit over -1.6°. Followed @Gale recommendations -ish, adjusted to street +. Toe is parallel in front, and +0.9mm each side rear if memory serves me right. No time to increase rear camber, so thats unchanged at approx. -1.7°. Rear 2x20mm spacer used during alignment, not according to normal procedure, but seems like it did not make big difference(?).

Parallel front toe made steering slightly more agile/direct, as expected, but tramlining is still no problem. Since this is a very subjective thing, I'll try to give an example; Say that I want to put on my phone on charging, using both hands, I can use my knee to hold the wheel for shorter periods, without being afraid(but alert!). Its far from a "flying carpet", but its no problem to cruise with one hand on wheel.

At track, the camber was a revolution. After last alignment, involving rear toe, I had a time of approx 1min46, no ECU tuning, two people in car, and Michelin Pilot Sport 4 original dimension, in other word a street tire. A heavily track modified 4C (Pogea tuning, wide semislics, all unnecessary parts removed, light battery, race seats and steering wheel ++) with a better driver does it in 1min38 if I'm correct. So very respectable time for my car.

And regarding MPS4, yes, they are far better than the OEM Pirellis. More comfort, but can take more at track for those occasions where you did not bother to put your trackday tires on. You can actually have some fun. Quite rare, I was positively surprised.
 
#39 ·
Not all the same. My stock car does not have a tramlining issue. Drive at 75mph on freeway with my lower thighs when I open a bottle of water. Never checked to see what alignment settings are because it has not been a big issue.

No handling issues at COTA at 130+ either.

Jeff
 
#40 ·
I do not understand "Not all the same"?

But yes, it must be quite a lot difference between the cars, however it seems that you are one of the lucky guys, good for you. If you run 17/18" thats a big difference/advantage as well. Unfortunately, 18/19" combo is how mine was delivered, even my trackday 17/18" semi slicks are more comfortable than OEM 18/19".

So for us not so lucky guys, 2x15mm spacer is worth testing out to resolve tramlining. Honesty, I've been wondering about removing AW blocks(decrease caster) and see how OEM with rear spacer works, might be perfect for me.
 
#42 ·
Also running 15mm spacers@ the back only. Stock alignment and stock 18/19 inch AR Pirelli's.
Tramlining is really less !! Probably the widened track @ the back.... Car feels indeed softer @ the back (don’t like it) and it's not as direct for steering into a corner.... (don't like that also)
Butt dyno says: more comfortable and less hardcore (darty)....
 
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#43 ·
Just to follow up on this thread, there was a similar thread discussing this and it does appear rear only spacers may truly make a difference in this area (i.e. actual data):

 
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#45 ·
Just to follow up on this thread, there was a similar thread discussing this and it does appear rear only spacers may truly make a difference in this area (i.e. actual data):
As mentioned, I was very good at only changing one thing at the time, then test. There was a immediate difference. It would make the rear a bit softer, so maybe not to everyone’s liking, honestly I did not notice. But at track, there is no understeer(0 front toe, a bit more than -1.6° camber), just turn, and it bites.
This is my stock alignment.... Not so good.... Need that adjusted. But the rear spacers made a difference...
Product Font Pattern Machine Art
 
#46 ·
Hi guys I thought i would put my information on here.
My car had front race blocks installed when i purchased the car. The previous owner told me it cured the "tramlining". Im not sure if he knew what he was doing but when i did a wheel alignment on the car it was miles off.
So the car tramlined dangerously when i got it so i thought best to start with a wheel alignment and some new tyres. I put re71s 215/40/18s and 245/35/19s. The tyres helped the car alot overall. Tramlining was still there but not as dangerous.
Anyway i did a track day and as we adjusted the tyre pressures accordingly the tramlining did improve but its still there.
So overall it 70% better than when i first started. Caster is about 5.5,
Font Parallel Paper Paper product Pattern

camber is -1.5 and toe - 1.5
Not sure what my next move is. Not sure if i should install.spacers in the rear?
 
#48 ·
Hi guys I thought i would put my information on here.
My car had front race blocks installed when i purchased the car. The previous owner told me it cured the "tramlining". Im not sure if he knew what he was doing but when i did a wheel alignment on the car it was miles off.
So the car tramlined dangerously when i got it so i thought best to start with a wheel alignment and some new tyres. I put re71s 215/40/18s and 245/35/19s. The tyres helped the car alot overall. Tramlining was still there but not as dangerous.
Anyway i did a track day and as we adjusted the tyre pressures accordingly the tramlining did improve but its still there.
So overall it 70% better than when i first started. Caster is about 5.5, View attachment 123282
camber is -1.5 and toe - 1.5
Not sure what my next move is. Not sure if i should install.spacers in the rear?
Just measured the wheelbase
Front 1859mm
Rear 1838mm
I wonder if thats the problem?.
 
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