Describe how the car is responding in a long turn (as opposed to a quick kink kind of turn), and assume a curve long enough that you hold steady throttle for a moment.

Break up a turn into parts:

1. Braking
2. Turn-in
3. Mid corner
4. Exit

Are you losing confidence before or after picking up the throttle after turn in? Once you’ve picked up the throttle, how steady are you through the turn? Are you on-off-on-off through the turn or can you hold a steady state through a turn?

Think about how the load transfers as you go through the 4 parts of the turn and what that does to the tire contact with the road.

1. Under heavy braking, the load transfers to the front, compresses the front suspension and to the tires, increasing the contact patch with the ground.

2. As you come off the brakes and start to turn in, the load progressively shifts off the front. As you roll into a corner, assuming you’re still slowing as you turn in, you’re still carrying load up front but with increased steering angle, the load is transferring to the outside tires, and if you’re still slowing down, this is when the outside front tire is doing its most work (turning and steering).

3. Mid corner - as you pick up the throttle, the objective is to balance the load to maximize tire contact patches and balance between the front and rear tires, maximizing grip.

4. At the exit, as you begin unwinding the steering, the load will transfer to the rear as you begin to accelerate out of the corner. The front tire contact patch diminishes as the rear increases. If you accelerate too hard too early, you can either understeer (because the load transfers rearward and the front loses grip) or you can transfer too much load to the rear and break rear tire traction (oversteer).

You mentioned sweepers and tight corners. This car is light, low and transfers load very quickly. It is easy to overload a tire. If there is play in the bushings or the dampening isn’t settling oscillations properly, then the load can change, impacting tire contact with the ground. Confidence comes when the load transfers predictably and the contact patches are not in constant flux. All of the suspension mods beyond the suspension blocks are designed to increase consistency in load transfer. But before you start adding new parts to the system, start with the #1 part, the driver. Slow down your inputs, especially with your feet. Find the consistency through smoothness. Be deliberate with the load transfer and find when you’ve transferred it too quickly. Even in tight corners, slow down coming off the throttle and onto the brakes. Feel the car settle, turn in smoothly, pick up the throttle smoothly. You’ll find performance in the smoothness. Then, once you’ve maxed out what the as-built suspension is able to provide, then look at improvements like bushings, suspension arms, coilovers, spring rates, aero mods etc.

I hope this is helpful-

 

I've yet to read Squawker's reply (because I'm only on break, not on vacation! ) - his advice looks excellent from skimming through. I can just hilight that the 4C rewards SMOOTH driving - means the application AND RELEASE of all inputs.

If you are finding the throttle to be "on/off" (or the brakes for that matter), then more practice is required to get used to modulating them.

And I think then, that you will find that even with the alignment and tires, the 4C throttle steers wonderfully. You can balance it with little effort, and change from on-throttle understeer to lift-oversteer almost through thought alone. It's a wonderful feeling, dancing this car through a series of technical corners, "on point". Getting that extra few degreed rotation mid corner is as easy as taking a feather's weight off of the loud pedal.

What mode do you drive in? That will make a huge difference in the car's reactions at the limit.

Not having the weight of the engine over the front axle means that you have to create your own grip on corner entry (per Squawker's advice, above). Totally different from a F-R/ Front-Mid-R, or AWD setup. And mid corner corrections can (should) be caught by throttle long before they turn serious. Using the steering wheel for that, unless the car has already gotten too far ahead of you, can be dangerous in a mid engine machine. "Pendulum of death". But it needn't ever come to that. You just need to focus and stay ahead of the car.

The 4C is pretty docile, even in RACE mode, although she will always reward a considerate pilot.

 

@VanillaThunder0210 , Get yourself some uniballs for the rear arms (or GMS rear arms) from GMS as a first suspension mod. You’ll then have the confidence in what the rear is doing. Zero the front toe. I did the positive front toe thing and it felt awful. Lots of front push and delayed turn-in when driving hard. I’d also add half a degree extra of front negative camber and about about -0.7 deg of rear camber. You’ll get better bite on turn-in and better grip mid-corner and corner exit at the rear. Warmed up Pirellis are OK but you have to drive them with delicacy to get the best out of them….They can be fun but certainly lack ultimate grip. Try Conti SportContact SC7 225/40x18 and 255/35x19 if you can get them. An excellent tyre. Edit: Conti Extreme ContactSport 02 is a good alternative.

Edit: Does your car have suspension blocks on the front? 4 and a half degrees of caster isn’t helping with steering lightness.

 

@VanillaThunder0210 , Get yourself some uniballs for the rear arms (or GMS rear arms) from GMS as a first suspension mod. You’ll then have the confidence in what the rear is doing. Zero the front toe. I did the positive front toe thing and it felt awful. Lots of front push and delayed turn-in when driving hard. I’d also add half a degree extra of front negative camber and about about -0.7 deg of rear camber. You’ll get better bite on turn-in and better grip mid-corner and corner exit at the rear. Warmed up Pirellis are OK but you have to drive them with delicacy to get the best out of them….They can be fun but certainly lack ultimate grip. Try Conti SportContact SC7 225/40x18 and 255/35x19 if you can get them. An excellent tyre. Edit: Conti Extreme ContactSport 02 is a good alternative.

The alignment might be my problem. The car borders being not a whole lot of fun to drive in the twisties. I will give your suggestions a try. Thanks!

 

Coil overs, especially high quality ones, make a big difference as do the bushings.

 

All the suggestions have merit and are useful. I experienced the exact same thing. Stock, it is a fun car to drive slow and a slightly scary car to drive fast. With some work on the car and my driving, I can now flog it pretty well without much fear. In the end it is a short wheelbase rear biased car and that requires a change in technique and some respect. It is worth the investment in time.

 

How long have you had it and what was your upgrade path?

 

Nice write up

You asked about braking stability - did your car have the track package? Which upgrade solved that issue for you? I find reducing rear rebound dampening or front compression dampening increases braking stability by allowing the suspension to settle in more and follow the road without deflection.

I knew when I test drove my car that the entire suspension would be replaced. Brake cooling for the track is a big deal. I haven’t thought about aero yet but I’m sure that will pop up next year for me

 

Nice write up

You asked about braking stability - did your car have the track package? Which upgrade solved that issue for you? I find reducing rear rebound dampening or front compression dampening increases baking stability by allowing the suspension to settle in more and follow the road without deflection.

I knew when I test drove my car that the entire suspension would be replaced. Brake cooling for the track is a big deal. I haven’t thought about aero yet but I’m sure that will pop up next year for me

I had the track package with upgraded springs dampening and rear sway bar. For the road, fine. For the track… I recently got some coaching and when we overlayed my data over his, I had half the brake pressure early, was slower between brake and throttle, and was not trailing as well. By end of day, I was equal in brake pressure and later but not quite enough, trailing a little better, delay between brake and throttle was narrowing. Lap time drop was 7 seconds. I was hitting the titanium pucks under full braking. This led to an increase in spring rates all around and why quite a few people are running stiffer springs in the front than the rear.

 

Ti pucks? Under your splitter? I think you mentioned your front is at 100mm, rear at 110, right?

 

Yes, front splitter. Some tracks 100/110 some 100/100. It depends. Faster tracks I run flatter slower tracks with some rake.

 

I feel like I can drive my QV faster, and my 72 Super nearly as fast through sweepers and tight corners despite one being 1400 lbs heavier and the other having 185/60 all-season tires on it.

We have a very similar list of cars!

The comparison to your QV isn't really fair. The Giulia (especially the QV) is just a much more well developed chassis (one of the few productions cars that is basically neutral handling right out of the box), with really sharp steering and a "magic" torque vectoring differential. And 505 hp. So it should feel faster - it is!

I have a '67 Super as well. When well set-up, they are amazing. The longer wheelbase compared to a Spider or GTV is great for handling and they can be really nimble. But I wonder if this just "feels" faster than the 4C in corners?

Steering with the throttle isn't really a thing with the 4C I feel because the rear end just doesn't come around along with the on/off nature of the engine. It's more like a brutal sort of driving style that's required where I just have to hammer it and crank the wheel coming out of a corner, and let the excellent rear grip take charge, almost like an AWD car. Maybe not having an LSD is part of the reason?
Does anyone else feel this way?

I sort of feel the same way, but I've had our 4C since new so I have learned to trust it a little bit more. It is hard to be smooth with the car, but rewarding when you get it right.

And of course it's also a lot of fun to drive it "rally style" with catch and release type slides around most tighter corners. In a certain sense that is a good way to describe the car - "looks like a mini-exotic, drives like a rally car".

 

@JoeCab that’s really cool! As far as my Super goes, I’m sure the 4c is capable of being faster but I start feeling relatively uncomfortable at about the same speeds in each on the roads I know. Also, rapid left to right (or vice versa) transitions feel more comfortable in the Super I think because the 4c feels like it wants to slide laterally while the 105 wants the rear end to come around which is easily stopped with steering input and throttle.
You’re right, I’m sure the 4c would be faster if I trusted it more, but I don’t, yet at least. I’m glad you said all that though. I consider myself a pretty good driver but I feel like the 4c is just very challenging to drive fast. I expected it to be much faster than my QV because of the weight difference and much lower center of gravity. Power to weight also isn’t much different and the 4c puts the power down a lot better too.

 

When you’re sliding the 4C around, do you know what’s going to happen next? Or does each corner feel like a crapshoot?

 

Agree with getting skidpad time. I have stock 4C with race suspension and BSPK 18/19 wheels along with John4c suggested sizes for Michelin Pilot Sport tires. Rears are the BMW Michelin spec because John4c indicated they are slightly wider than other specs.
My alignment was done by the previous owner and included aligning with 150 lb in the driver seat. I’ll post specs later.
Bottom line is I feel very confident with the handling at high speeds on corners. You do have to warm up the tires and I live in Texas where ambient temperature is fairly high.

I have ZERO desire for coil overs, uniballs or suspension blocks.
During last group run I stayed comfortably ahead of an Aston Martin Vantage. That driver subsequently asked me questions about buying a 4C.

 

I have found the car to be much better after some suspension upgrades, initially I felt like I was ice skating when pushing the car for max speed on bends it was not hard to control but took attention and the gonads to stay in it sometimes when the instinct was to lift. with the addition of coilovers and a full GMS setup and wider tires with the new rims the car is very predictable and easy to manage compared to stock.
I really enjoy driving the car it is an event every time I get in it I have a few very fast cars in the garage and the 4C gets 90% of my seat time these days, it just so much car in a small package!

 

Are you driving in Race mode?

 

No. Dynamic.

 

Start using race mode.... a lot

 

Lol, why? Pretty sure that's the last thing I'd want to do if instability is the issue.

 

For me it's more predictable with stability control kicking in makes it more unpredictable, also race mode gives you quicker shifts, maximum overboost functionality for more power. It's down to driving style and how comfortable you are without computer taking over.

 

For me it's more predictable with stability control kicking in makes it more unpredictable, also race mode gives you quicker shifts , maximum overboots functionality for more power. Its down to driving style and how comfortable you are without computer taking over.

Totally agree with this.

As you say, though, it is down to style and comfort.

I eventually found that Dynamic was getting in my way, and I could actually produce a smoother, faster lap in Race mode. Even in the wet.

Again, YMMV.

 

Honestly this sounds weird but just send it. I felt the same way on some curvy roads. The car at times feels not confidence inducing, but when I would just commit it did what it was supposed to

 

Honestly coming back to this post I have to say one thing. Last night I was hitting up my spot in my city that has four sharp but long corners. I was going 60-65mph through them, and the car could barely handle it. It almost feels like all the weight shifts to the side and back wheel.

It definitely made me feel uneasy, but I held it and committed along with “trail braking” (a technique I use on my motorcycles to reduce speed and increase grip in the turn) I figure in the future I may need to upgrade the suspension as it’s 10 years old at this point and may need an upgrade/replacement anyway.

But I just just wanted to let you know I get what you mean. In the beginning I overlooked the strange heavy feeling in the corners because it still corners good, but ever since I read this post I’ve been thinking about how it could be better and what I can do to improve this area. If you have any advice or mod your car, please let me know what you end up doing 🙏🏽

 

@RICO4C “If you have any advice or mod your car, please let me know what you end up doing 🙏🏽”

probably one thousand million of thread on this forum are describing all the mods you can do on 5his car in any area…..take your time, drive carefully with that noise in the rear, solve it, read the post you are interested in, learn how the car is and improve your confidence, mods her

 

If you were off throttle through the turn, then the steering would feel heavier and the rear would be carrying less load. In that state, the smaller front tires are doing more work. Break it down into vectors; one vector is fore/aft, the other is left/right. The combined length of those vectors describe the total load the tire is carrying. If you’re slowing and turning, then you have less available grip for turning. If you’re just turning, the fore/aft (acceleration/deceleration) vector is shorter, so more grip is available for turning.

Same goes for turning and accelerating. If you’re asking the car to accelerate in a turn, then you are asking that some of the available tire grip to be used to accelerate, thus less is available for turning.

Chris Harris looks fast on video, but in reality, drifting is a LOT slower on the track. He completely overloads the outside rear tire to perform his signature power oversteer. If speed was his objective, he would balance the load front / rear (fore/aft) with the throttle mid turn to maximize cornering speed.

Try your 4 turns again. This time, its fine you’re trailing throttle as you’re turning in, but once your steering is set for the arc of the turn, pick up the throttle and evenly balance the load on the outside tires fore/aft. When you start to unwind the steering, smoothly accelerate- meaning: don’t punch it, smoothly squeeze the throttle. You should be full throttle when the steering is pointing down the next straightaway. When you get this balance right, everything feels easier. Of course, the tires and suspension settings are important, but get the balance right, then you’ll start to understand what is going on with the suspension.

I was teaching a student on a kart many moons ago who was pushing wide on a fast 110 degree double apex right hand turn. He would come into the brake zone, brake as late as possible, turn in, then jump on the throttle then miss the second apex by a few feet. I showed him he could brake earlier, squeezing the brake progressively rather than slamming the brake, then as he’s turning in, smoothly pick up the throttle to balance the grip fore/aft. The first time he actually did it, not only was he able to hit the second apex, he shaved .5 seconds off his lap time on a 45 second lap. Just by optimizing one corner. It feels much different driving like that. There’s much less of a feeling of being slammed around by the forces, and more like a slow zen dance.

There was a great description in I think Road & Track in a story back in the 80s. Imagine you have a ball inside a bowl that is on the dashboard. Keep that ball inside the bowl, and make it smoothly ride high along the bowl as you go through the corner. You have that ball illustrated in Race Mode with the G-Force indicator.

 

Good advice, I figured in a car you just send it. I didn’t think you needed to have knowledge like this so it helps a lot. I guess I should’ve figured riding a motorcycle is like a car, you need to know the mechanics of cornering, and the ‘geometry’ of the car in order to perfect driving skill. I’ll read this again, give it a shot tonight, and practice more. In the day time that road may have other drivers haha so I need it to be empty to ensure others safety along with mine. 👍🏽

 

Also, be in the right gear so that you can keep the turbo on boost during the corner. There’s nothing so un-settling as adding throttle from really low RPM just past the apex only to have the turbo boost come on in one big lump. BAM! That’ll make your sphincter pucker, especially if there is a wall on the outside of the corner!