[4Canada]

The Chinese are asking for data. They say they can’t find any.
Where can I find the most comprehensive detailing of our OE brake system together with drawings and dimensions? Any help would be great!

From another thread (GMS brake offerings):

OEM 305mm x 28mm - Front - 6690g
OEM 292mm x 22mm - Rear - 5660g
Total - 24700g

GMS SLT brake discs 305mm x 28mm - Front - 6890g
GMS SLT brake discs 292mm x 22mm - Rear - 4990g
Total - 23760g

GMS SLR BBK 330mm x 28mm - Front - 6990g
GMS SLR BBK 320mm x 22mm - Rear - 5290g
Total - 24560g

 

[4Canada]

And as to the holes, these are for the hub and lug bolts (salient bits hilighted):

just found this out in the manual
for refrence the lug bolts are M12 x 1.25 and 17mm
they should be torqued to 72ft/lb or 98NM

The standard wheel specification is

Front 7Jx17" H2 et 33, rear 8Jx18" et 44

or

Front 7Jx18" H2 et 33, rear 8.5Jx19" et 49

98mm PCD

58mm bore

5 stud

 

[FLORO]

That’s great info. We need dimensions like rotor/bell/disc offsets and we are there I think!

 

[Folgore688]

In a couple of years, the whole 4C will be made in China

Unfortunately you are right... Chinese companies already own most of the famous Italian brands, they replace the products with cheap stuff made in China, yet retain the name. What a sad world we live in!! Thank you Globalization!!!

 

[4Canada]

Unfortunately you are right... Chinese companies already own most of the famous Italian brands, they replace the products with cheap stuff made in China, yet retain the name. What a sad world we live in!! Thank you Globalization!!!

Am I the only one who finds that statement slightly ironic?
Upset that one offshore brand might be made at another offshore location, none of which would be available to us without globalization in the first place. Or possibly affordable.
Although I know what you mean, there's a lot of decent product that comes out of places like China. Including your iPhone. Likely the air conditioner in your home or office.
China is where Japan was in the 1960's or Korea in the 80's - those countries were also considered to make poor quality items, but now are as established in top echelon goods as Europe or North America.

Although I'm ribbing you a bit here, rather than trying to be political, there is a relevance to this thread.
Chinese factories will make exactly what you ask them to. They make cheap junk because there is a market for that. They make good products at a better price than many places are able to, as well. But in order to ensure you get the latter rather than the former, you need to provide a very specific scope and stay on top of the process. That's hard with a supplier one has never dealt with, from half a world away, in one's spare time. But references and technical certifications from the factory are a good place to start. It's not impossible that these disks come out another door from the same building as Brembo parts (Nanjing, China).

 

[Mahjik]

On cars that offer both steel and carbon, the ones I have observed it's not just the rotors and pads that are different. They have different calipers per application. I have never dug into why that is.. i.e. it could be that the increased caliper size is to also make the buyer feel/show they have an "upgrade". I don't know there is a material or performance reason for the difference or not. But, I do know on for example the Jaguar F-Type, the entire mechanical side of the braking mechanism is completely replaced between the two offerings (i.e. pads, rotors and calipers which typically also means brake line adjustments).

 

[KarlB]

Volvo is synonymous with safety here in the UK.
Even with our dodgy weather conditions NOBODY has yet died in an XC90. That’s why I bought one for my family wagon. Guess where they are made
....

Welllll... is your XC90 made in China? Afaik most Volvo's, inc the XC90, are still made in Sweden, some in US, and for the Asian market, in China.
I would have thought yours would be made in Sweden.... or no? Curious...

 

[FLORO]

We have the carbon ceramic brakes on our Giulia QV. Most of the downsides you hear mentioned - squeal, poor cold performance, lack of "pedal feel" - really have been a non-issue.

The real upside is that they barely dust at all, and feel immensely powerful. And, for street use, Alfa basically says they are rated for the life of the car - or 2 track days. Yes, they can get very expensive when tracking the car.

Now - that application was designed around the carbon ceramic brakes. There are many differences between the Giulia QV with the ceramic brakes and the Giulia QV with steel brakes - software calibration being the most important. So I'm not sure you can expect the exact same results when retrofitting carbon ceramics to a car that wasn't designed for them.

That’s a valuable point. Do you know if the ABS pump is the same? If it is, the techs I use can probably compare the different Giulia QV strategies and see what needs doing.

 

[FLORO]

On cars that offer both steel and carbon, the ones I have observed it's not just the rotors and pads that are different. They have different calipers per application. I have never dug into why that is.. i.e. it could be that the increased caliper size is to also make the buyer feel/show they have an "upgrade". I don't know there is a material or performance reason for the difference or not. But, I do know on for example the Jaguar F-Type, the entire mechanical side of the braking mechanism is completely replaced between the two offerings (i.e. pads, rotors and calipers which typically also means brake line adjustments).

I believe it’s about perceived value. Asking £10k for a pair of discs would be a step too far.

Here’s why I think we will get away with it.
Our callipers are top notch with pad area comparable with pads for CC brakes, proportionately to the disc size. It looks right to me.
The skinnier 28mm thickness correlates well to our vehicle weight. A Lamborghini or Mercedes has 32-34mm thick CC Rotors but they weight twice as much and have twice the hp. 28mm is more than adequately thick for our car, I’m convinced. The Chinese engineers will have the final say and new callipers with the set are not out of the question. I would just prefer to achieve the ultimate. Our 4C factory brakes on steroids.

 

[Folgore688]

Am I the only one who finds that statement slightly ironic?
Upset that one offshore brand might be made at another offshore location, none of which would be available to us without globalization in the first place. Or possibly affordable.
Although I know what you mean, there's a lot of decent product that comes out of places like China. Including your iPhone. Likely the air conditioner in your home or office.
China is where Japan was in the 1960's or Korea in the 80's - those countries were also considered to make poor quality items, but now are as established in top echelon goods as Europe or North America.

Although I'm ribbing you a bit here, rather than trying to be political, there is a relevance to this thread.
Chinese factories will make exactly what you ask them to. They make cheap junk because there is a market for that. They make good products at a better price than many places are able to, as well. But in order to ensure you get the latter rather than the former, you need to provide a very specific scope and stay on top of the process. That's hard with a supplier one has never dealt with, from half a world away, in one's spare time. But references and technical certifications from the factory are a good place to start. It's not impossible that these disks come out another door from the same building as Brembo parts (Nanjing, China).

Point taken, you're right.... if there wasn't a market they would not produce it. It is capitalism after all, which I am all for!

 

[86GTV6]

I don’t argue that buying Chinese stuff to save money is a bad thing but to support a Chinese communist party dictatorship with atrocious human rights abuses and increasing ambition for global expansion with my discretionary spending is not for me.

 

[FLORO]

I don’t argue that buying Chinese stuff to save money is a bad thing but to support a Chinese communist party dictatorship with atrocious human rights abuses and increasing ambition for global expansion with my discretionary spending is not for me.

Do you feel the same about fuel, mineral and food imports from Russia that finance the genocide in Ukraine? Or Saudi Arabia who are committing atrocities in Yemen killing hundreds of thousands of men women and children as we speak? You wouldn’t support that by buying any Saudi oil based fuel would you? It’s slippery slope. The moral high ground is great if you can afford it.

 

[360Tom]

Besides squeal, worse cold braking performance, and the cost to replace rotors, I don't see a downside.

In all honesty, ceramic rotors are more of a talking point than of practical use. You don't need them on a street car - especially one as light as the 4C that already stops on a dime with stock pads and cast iron rotors.

Their party trick is weight, for sure. But how much faster do you need to get to the Cars & Coffee? Their other major benefit is heat dissipation, but for road use that isn't going to be an issue. Other benefits are that they don't corrode and dust is minimal.

Cold braking is compromised. Most people will never get carbon ceramic brakes up to their optimal operating temperatures. As a result, they squeal. Like city bus kind of squealing (seriously). And while they are squealing because they are cold, they are also wearing faster than they should. That noise is not only annoying, it's expensive. We'll see what these cost - would be interested to see.

You'd think they would be great for the track. Developed for Formula 1 racing, they are great, but not the kind of thing that casual track day drivers or low-budge racing teams can afford to replace as frequently as you might have to when tracking your car. As a result, you'll see a lot of tracked Ferrari and Porsches with two-piece steel rotors, the carbon ceramics sitting in a box in the garage.

They are a neat talking point, and the weight savings is not trivial, but be sure you know what you are getting before you buy.

i agree. They are mostly a talking point, especially for those of you who actually track your cars. Most of us whom do track, switch out CCB’s for steel rotors due to how fast you destroy them. Most Porsche GT cars run steel on the track. If you have a big budget, CCB’s are nice. I have them on my quadrifoglio and they are nice on the track, but after the first track day, I could see significant wear on the rotors afterwards. The brakes on the 4C are so good in the stock form. The car is so light that there isn’t much water on them and they never seem to overheat on the track. I have had some 35-40 minute sessions with no fade. As far as the cool factor, they would look cool if they were much larger filling the entire wheel, but that would require a larger caliper as well.
And like you mentioned, they do need lots of heat to work properly. They are sketchy the first few minutes of driving.

 

[86GTV6]

Do you feel the same about fuel, mineral and food imports from Russia that finance the genocide in Ukraine? Or Saudi Arabia who are committing atrocities in Yemen killing hundreds of thousands of men women and children as we speak? You wouldn’t support that by buying any Saudi oil based fuel would you? It’s slippery slope. The moral high ground is great if you can afford it.

Yes. I don’t mind paying more or do without.

 

[JoeCab]

That’s a valuable point. Do you know if the ABS pump is the same? If it is, the techs I use can probably compare the different Giulia QV strategies and see what needs doing.

It's a bit more complicated than that. I think the master cylinder and abs pump are physically the same, but...

The Giulia uses the Teves brake by wire system, so when I say "software" it's a lot more involved than just ABS. For example, it's well known that Carbon Ceramic brakes are easy to glaze if you use them hard when cold. So the software can vary the amount of actual brake pressure a given amount of pedal produces based on temperature, as well as I'm sure many other factors. The car also has a torque vectoring rear differential, so the brakes are heavily integrated into the stability control system and these calibrations must also vary between the carbon ceramic and steel brake cars.

FYI the Giulia carbon ceramic brakes are also a full inch larger than the steel brake option, and do use different calipers, which necessitates different suspension uprights and hubs.

 

[roadsterdoc]

I don’t argue that buying Chinese stuff to save money is a bad thing but to support a Chinese communist party dictatorship with atrocious human rights abuses and increasing ambition for global expansion with my discretionary spending is not for me.

China, along with every country on the planet including the USA, has committed unthinkable atrocities to an untold number of lives as well as to the environment. It’s normsl psychology to give your team a pass while pointing out the other side’s violations. As it turns out, we humans continue to be quite exploitative and opportunistic. I take some solace in that things are better now than they were 1-2 thousand years ago (with the exception of world scale wars, massive environmental waste, and nuclear warfare). Perhaps we’re moving in the right direction or maybe we are a malignancy to this planet. Maybe both. Make up for it by being kind to others, keep an open mind and heart, and watch that fear meter as lately we’re being trained to fear others, not embrace. Enjoy our unique human experience and make the most out the fun stuff like our silly cars. We are here but only a moment.

 

[4C-ophe]

Chinese companies already own most of the famous Italian brands, …

I can not think of one!?!
Fiat was put together with what was left of Chrysler, and now joined with the PSA group. Lamborghini is German. Ferrari mainly Middle East afaik. Pagani still independent to some degree.

On the other side, when you see what Geely means to Volvo and Lotus, that’s a better treatment then Alfa gets at its foster home! Lotus is evolving to real quality cars.
Have to see where it all will end in a few years though, as the Chinese mainly buy a name and start building cars - or better said SUVs - that don’t have a thing in common with the original. But then again, MG is talking about a roadster again, where Stellantis keeps pushing the Alfa Spider further into the future…

 

[Alipapa]

Being a Chinese and also in manufacturing (printing to be exact) my opinion is certainly bias.

It is true that there are billions of junk product coming out from China, but there are also tons of quality stuff being made as well.

You won't believe how many test, overkill QC and social responsibility audit is required by my customers. There are even live VOC monitoring devices on top of every printing press to make sure we are within regulation. The fuse in one of the device blown once, and the "environmental control department" showed up within an hour checking if we are cheating with the data...

All I can say is that there must be some good and some bad manufacture / people in every country. My Tesla P85+ was made in USA, and the service record must be as thick as my old SAT Prep Guide

 

[FLORO]

Found this
OEM Specifications:
Front:
Manufacture: Brembo
Part Number @ Left (Driver): 20895801
Part Number @ Right (Passenger): 20895802
Piston Number: 4
Piston Size: 38mm (Aluminum)
Axel Leading/Trailing: Trailing
Axial Pin Separation: 130 mm
Axial Pin Offset from Rotor Center: 50mm (approximate)
Rotor Diameter: 305 mm
Rotor Thickness: 28 mm

I’m happy to test a CC pad/rotor kit with our car as is and address issues if and when they arise.

 

[4Canada]

Found this
OEM Specifications:
Front:
Manufacture: Brembo
Part Number @ Left (Driver): 20895801
Part Number @ Right (Passenger): 20895802
Piston Number: 4
Piston Size: 38mm (Aluminum)
Axel Leading/Trailing: Trailing
Axial Pin Separation: 130 mm
Axial Pin Offset from Rotor Center: 50mm (approximate)
Rotor Diameter: 305 mm
Rotor Thickness: 28 mm

I’m happy to test a CC pad/rotor kit with our car as is and address issues if and when they arise.

You might be wise to get a set of stock rotors (there are some used for sale on the board right now) and send them to the manufacturer, so that there are no surprises or misunderstandings.