You would think the dealers would check on this before they deliver a car and that AR USA would have done it before they loaned cars to journalists. It might have help AR avoid bad reviews.

I plan to bring this up with my dealer when I get a car in.... I just hope their technician read the manual!

The dealer says checking alignment is not part of prep before delivery. This probably explains why some people have claimed the suspension on the 4C was crap. The car was just mis aligned and nobody bothered to check. AR definitely needs to raise the bar if they want to compete with the Germans.

 

The manual calls for tow-out, which is the crux of the problem. Even if they did/do check, it will still be wrong. The dealer won't ever do something the manual doesn't call for. Until AR Italy changes the manual, it will keep being set wrong. They need to issue a world wide TSB immediately.

 

Toe-out is a valid setup for certain desired handling characteristics. To simplify, toe-in will result in a car that is more stable and resists changing direction, toe-out will result in a car that turns more easily.

What is your assertion that the car should be toe'ed in and the manual is incorrect based on?

 

With tow-out, my car was trying to change lanes every ten feet.
With tow-in, my car is now tracking in a straight line.

 

Actually, looking at the manual pages that you posted, the rear is listed as 0° 40' toe-in. Where did you see this listed as out?

Also, using very rough numbers, the 40' for the rear is more like 1/4" and the 4' for the front is more like 1/32".

 

For front tow they list it as -0 5'
For rear tow they list it as 40'
Without a leading '-' it is automatically a '+' number. That makes it tow-out.

Page seven.

 

Having my 4C now 2weeks and 1500kms.. the only thing i am not happy with (apart from the parrot of course), is the nervousness of the steering. I wanne have my alignment properly checked and adjusted.. so thanks for this RacerZ!
First wanne go back to the dealer and ask them to check the alignment...and see what they come up with... if that doesnt help, will go to a tire-specialist and discuss some more toe-in..

 

Should be said also within the thread:
The wastage of the rubber could be extreme with the "wrong" values. Especially the inner tread profile can be destroyed at 3.000 miles (street use) only.

For street use a -1° camber at the front is enough. At the rear I would go to the maximum which is approx. -1° 50' minutes

The most important value for a better handling on bad roads with ruts is the front toe. More negative value means better handling for the 4C.
-0° 4' to -0° 6' for each side is a good value. I know some 4C which came with 0° or plus values! In this case the 4C handling is bad on roads with ruts and you have to grip the steering wheel very well.

I just checked a couple similar cars, and I'm fairly certain that you're just reading the values backwards and it is supposed to be 0° 5' toe-out in the front and 0° 40' toe-in in the rear.

You need minus values for the toe at the front (experience I made): Very important!

Front toe: At front wheel drive cars you usually use plus values, rear wheel drive cars need minus values for the front toe.
BTW: Sometimes the toe is stated as complete value for an axle, not by side.

In the manual it is stated as toe-in (which is usually a positive value), otherwise it must be stated as toe-out (for negative values). So why do they call it toe-in instead of "toe"?
For the rear the "minus" is missing in the manual, so it could be a translation problem (in the German manual it is translated like in the english version). Without the minus should be a toe-out value. Very confusing.
To make it easier to understand: It should be called only toe with plus or minus values and nobody get confused.
Plus values for toe are called toe-in and minus values for toe are called toe-out.

I have not adjusted the rear toe so much. If you change too many values at one time you do not recognise which of them has taken the effect. At the moment I have a rear toe of 0° 15'


@RacerZ
Have you tested changes only the rear toe (without front toe)?
For me it make sense that the powered axle should have a positive toe like stated in the manual. My actual setting is +0° 15'

I am a little bit confused about the conversion from dregrees to inch.
If you write inch-values do you mean the difference in the complete axle wide from left to right wheel?
Do the US alignment laser systems use still inch or do you measure by the old school method by hand?
Thanks

 

@RacerZ
Have you tested changes only the rear toe (without front toe)?
For me it make sense that the powered axle should have a positive toe like stated in the manual. My actual setting is +0° 15'

I am a little bit confused about the conversion from dregrees to inch.
If you write inch-values do you mean the difference in the complete axle wide from left to right wheel?
Do the US alignment laser systems use still inch or do you measure by the old school method by hand?
Thanks

We changed the rear tow from out to in and made the front camber more even.

The degrees to inches is beyond me also. What I'm used to measuring, by hand or by machine, is the difference between the front edge and rear edge of the tire. Typically, the front should be less than the rear. Subtract the front from the rear and that's the tow, in or out.

While the car is in forward motion, the forces push the wheels OUT. While at rest, the setting should be IN enough that the wheels are at zero while driving.

Tow OUT is good for autocross to help with a crisp turn-in, but on the highway, this tend to make a car unstable and want to wander.

 

In the thread on tire wear, there was an example of more wear on the inside (too much negative camber leads to this, right? I also read improper Toe angles result in uneven wear). There were also comments of rapid tire wear by some owners. Poor alignment will result in premature uneven wear as well as poor handling.

I'm wondering how many new LE owners got an alignment done ASAP? If the dealerships aren't doing it as part of prep, and owners ignore the handling issues because they're excited about finally getting a car, this sloppy factory alignment (hell Mario may be doing it with a pencil for all we know) could explain why some have been disappointed in the car.

 

The manual is not wrong. It very clearly lists the values as degrees of toe-in. They want negative 0* 5' of toe in for the front (which makes it toe out), and 0* 40' toe in in the rear. That's how the specs for most European cars are listed.

 

I'm reading it the same way JWA is. I think the manual looks correct.

Racer, so do you now have a little toe in up front? I'm sure that makes the car less fidgety, but does it also make your turn-in a little less sharp?


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

 

I had some tow-in on the front and a lot of tow-out on the back. We changed the rear to some tow-in.

The front caster was close to what is called for, so we left that.

The front camber was at -0.5 degree and -0.75 degree. Using shims from a Chevy we changed the worst camber to about -0.7 degree. This altered the caster as well, but not enough to matter.

The rear camber was close enough.

Changing the caster and/or camber effects the tow, so we did have to reset the front tow back to where it started.

The car went from twitchy and unstable to better.

I have shims on order now. They are about $8 each. I think I need 8 or 10 so I ordered 10. It seems all shims are the same thickness.

 

I have shims on order now. They are about $8 each. I think I need 8 or 10 so I ordered 10. It seems all shims are the same thickness.

Shims are still on back-order. Last week I finally called FCA and asked about this. They said they needed to check a few things and would get back to me. They called me today and said the shims are 'in transit'. They used 'expedite' which is a fancy word for 'hurry'. FCA told me my shims will be here in two or three days, which puts Friday as the point of interest.

Should I start holding my breath now? Or wait until later?

 

I purchased a set of coil overs from squadra sportiva as a result of a discussion elsewhere on this site that observed a improvement in stability after installing the coil overs and an alignment.
The purchase, by the way, was very professionally handled. I asked for their alignment specs - I provide them below for consideration as squadra sportiva has some real world experience.

I have not had time to install the new components or have alignment checked.

To quote their email to me:

Settings:
The different settings are
- wheel alignment
- rebound setting of the shocks/dampers
- height
Switching the settings are not so easy and take a lot time, the only easy and fast setting is the rebound which can be adjusted with a small tool directly at the damper. Adjusting the height is not difficult but it has influence to the wheel alignment. After you changed the height, you usually have to re-adjust the wheel alignment (not necessary for very small adjustments in height).

Height:
If you do not care about the height by optical reasons, you should NOT lower your car.
The ground clearance is very small and to protect your 4C keep the factory height you have now. In addition a longer travel will allow the shocks to give you a little bit more "comfort".
It will be measured from the center wheel to the fender. Page 2, Fig. B at the enclosed fitting instruction.
It is very important that you do not drop below the minimum height of 13,4 inch at the front and 13,8 inch at the rear! We recommend the OE height or a small lowering of up to 0.4 inches.
After driving a while the car comes down by 0.1 to 0.2 inches

Rebound setting:
The coilover suspension kit has 16 positions (clicks) from soft to stiff. It comes at position 9 and we recommend to use this setting first. You can change it every time to your personal liking.
If you drive usually not faster than 150 km/h you can adjust it a little bit softer to 11 or 12 clicks. This will give you a much more better ride, especially with 18/19" wheels.
For high speeds on the race track you should adjust back to 9 or a little bit stiffer. I have no experiences with oval tracks like NASCAR tracks, so I can't give you an advice for such kind of tracks.
It is no problem to drive Vmax in factory setting 9 (you only need to keep one's nerve if the road is not perfect or if it is windy). The 4C was not build for fast drives, the front axle is very nervous at high speed.


Wheel alignment:
The toe can be adjusted by wrenches.
The front camber can be adjusted by spacers (take a lot time).
The rear camber can be adjusted by the OE eccentric system (very easy).

For the alignment we would recommend for each side:
front camber: -1° to -1° and 30 minutes
front toe: -3 to -6 minutes

rear camber: to maximum, which is approx. -1° and 55 minutes
rear toe: +15 minutes on each side.

Notes:
Front camber: If you feel that the 4C has too much understeering, you should go to -1° and 30 minutes or to the maximum. Otherwise you can keep the OE setting of approx -1° which is better for the tires. Means if you go to -1° and 30 minutes or more your tire wastage is higher. You also can use small spacers at the front to reduce the understeering.

Front toe of -2 minutes (or more) will reduce the nervous steerance a little bit, but will increase the wastage of the rubber. We tested with -3 minutes on each side, there is "no" wastage, we will try -6 minutes soon (the problem is that you need a lot of miles to see the result of the wastage).
ATTENTION: I really mean MINUS values!!

Rear: The maximum camber is good for fast driving and with the +15 minutes toe there is "no" wastage. We have not tested so much with the rear by this reason.

Important hint: Do not change to many values at the same time!

 

So they agree with the factory manual, slight toe out in front, toe in in back.

RacerZ, I think your dealer read the specs backwards too. When given in degrees, positive is in and negative is out.

 

Hmmm......

 

Sounds like you're about to break into a chorus of a Crash Test Dummies song...

 

Here's an illustration from the spare parts catalogue with the part number. It's the plate number 8 that is used when adjusting camber. When I've got mine I'll update you with thickness and how many you can expect to need.

 

@Tallinn, I'm only 2.5 years late to the party but is the parts catalogue you took this from available online??? In which case can you pls copy and paste the link?

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

 

Here's an illustration from the spare parts catalogue with the part number. It's the plate number 8 that is used when adjusting camber. When I've got mine I'll update you with thickness and how many you can expect to need.

That would be appreciated, thanks. It would be interesting to know how much one plate affects camber. I will be installing new coil overs from Squadra Sportiva next weekend. Also, I checked my current alignment and found it to be within factory specifications.

 

Still waiting on shims. My dealer says they are not available yet. He's going to make some calls and find out more info.

 

Novitec has having shims made in different thicknesses, expected to be delivered next week. In Europe that is of course...

 

From degrees to inches is not rocket sceince for example 0,25 degrees and a distance of 19 inches between the points at which you measure the toe distance gives a toe distance of
Sin(0,25) x 19 = 0,083 inch and thats around 5/64 inch

 

In lay terms, 1/16 to 1/8 out?

 

Just checked the pages you posted for the front they state a negative toe in so that makes it a toe out tmho. They also state it as a half toe in so for one wheel as when measuring distance for the toe in you always measure both Wheels at the same time the math for a full tank and front Wheels is Sin((2 X 5)/60)x18 = 0,05" thats a toe out between 1/16 and 3/64

 

With tow-out it will wander and be unpleasant on long straight drives.

 

True, with zero toe or slight toe-in the front end will be more stable, which is generally desired for straight-line driving. Might be a good choice for you for street driving. But - be aware that it will require you to throw the weight around a bit more to get it to turn on the track. That will make a the edge between grip and spin even more ragged. Just be careful if you go back out.

 

To add some fuel to the alignment discussion, I provide the following quote from a question I posed to Squadra Sportiva:

"Please note that the 4C is a rear wheel drive, they need a little bit toe-out.
At front wheel drive you need toe-in.

Yes, the front axle must have a minus toe (toe-out).
We recommend for each side:
front toe: -3 to -6 minutes (or correctly: -0°3' to -0°6')

Of course 0 to -2 minutes will work also fine but with more toe-out your 4C do not wander so much on rain grooves (ruts?). So 0°0' is also fine on very plain roads. On balance you must find your alignment for your local area and your personal likes. Do not change to many parameters at one time"

 

This weekend I installed the KZ coilovers provided by Squadra Sportiva. The LE stock coilovers are quite stout, use progressive springs and are manufactured in Poland. The KZ shocks permit ride height and rebound adjustment. I have attached a picture of the stock and KZ units for comparison. The rear stock units weigh 18.4 lbs, the KZ replacements 14lbs. The replacement was straight forward following the instructions in the Alfa reference material found on this site. It was not necessary to disconnect the steering knuckle as shown in the instructions, one can easily remove and replace the shock with no further dis-assembly than removing the two connecting bolts for the coilovers. The KZ rear units came with all the brackets supplied on the stock unit.

I set the ride height about .4 inches higher than Squadra's recommendation to compensate for our local road conditions - the setting still seem to be somewhat lower than stock - time will tell.

I have not realigned the car since I finished the replacement. As recommended by Squadra I set the rears to -1 degree camber using the eccentric bolt on the rear bold on the top shock mount. It does not appear that any shims have been used to set the camber on the front. My impression of the car from a brief installation ride is that the suspension is more compliant with the new shocks. I plan to take the car into a Porsche alignment shop this week to get the car aligned. My plan is to set the front toe to negative toe in as described above. Currently the front is set to positive toe.

The purchase of the units from Squadra Sportiva was straight forward, they did not charge VAT and the units arrived in less than a week from order; they have also been most helpful in answering my email questions.

 

Success

I finally recieved my shims, had the car aligned and have put about 200 miles on it. It drives terrific! Just like it should. Better than before I crashed it.

The shim part number is: 0050525774-001
Ricambi Original "Made in Italy"
Price: $5.85 each. (USD)

The alignment shop added three shims to one point on the left lower control arm. That put both the camber and caster in spec. Then he set the tow.

......................................front --------|| .......... rear
...................caster; .....camber; ...tow|| .....camber; tow
...............left; right; ..left; right; ------ || ..left; right;
Before: +3.0; +2.3; -0.5; -1.0; -1/16|| -1.70; -1.60; +1/32
-.After: +2.1; +2.2; -1.0; -1.1; ... 0.0|| -1.80; -1.60; +7/32
-.Spec: +2.1; +2.1; -1.0; -1.0; -1/16|| -1.75; -1.75; +1/4

When my car was new, before I crashed it, it drove OK. Some tram-lining from rain grooves but not bad. Being a motorcyclist from way back, I'm kind of use to that so it didn't really bother me. The changes in road surface would wiggle the car at times, but not enough for me to be concerned.

Then I crashed my car, bent some stuff including a control arm, had it repaired and sent out for alignment. Got the car back and it drove like crap. The tram-lining was horrific! The changes in road surface was murder. If the two sides had different types of bedding, the car was going in two directions at the same time. It kept trying to change lanes. I was being tossed around like a ship in a stormy sea.

Now, with the alignment in spec, the car is smooth. Better than new. Rain grooves don't exist. Gone. Completely. Uneven roads, not a problem. Changes in road texture barely exist.

I've driven almost 200 miles over the roads and lanes that used to toss the car and it drives like a perfect new road, all the time. I can drive two fingered over roads that used to require two fists. I am not exaggerating here. I am dead serious.

The only time my car felt good was on perfect new roads. Now the worst road feels like a new perfect road.

To continue with my saga: When I first got my car back after the crash repair, I told them something was wrong with the alignment. They said their shop set it and that is that. I finally took my car to an independent shop and found it was nowhere near spec. Waited several months for new shims, had it put in spec, documented everything and went back to my dealer, with proof.

They refunded me the $150 they had charged me. My shop only charged me $100. But the $$$ is not the point.


I suspect that AR didn't do much of an alignment before the cars left Italy. All the reporters who complained about how crappy the car drives, and all the new owners with a similar complaint.... well... it seems that the alignment on the 4C is more critical than other cars with less feedback.

 

Dude! What were the odds? Is that Mario's pencil?

 

It is Mario's pencil. Interested in how I came to be the holder of the torch?

I thought so.

Well, it was a dark and stormy night in mid-January of an unmentionable year. The boogieman was hiding in my closet. I could hear the clawing and pounding from within. Hiding under my bed in the fetal position didn't seem to help much. I was sweating bullets, my heart was pounding and I couldn't breath.

A grinding noise started followed by a snapping of a twig or a leg. Whew, not my leg! Then I heard a lumpity-lump-lump sound that seemed to last forever. It was getting closer and closer ... and closer.

My lungs were ready to burst for lack of breathing. But I wasn't scared. Nope, not me. I opened one eye, just a smidgen and there was this yellow number two rolling at me. I just knew it was going to jump up and stab me.

I jumped up and hit my head on the bed frame, which knocked me out cold.

When I came too, I had this broken, chewed on yellow number two in my grubby little hand. Blood was oozing out and drip.. drip... dripping down. Splat ... splat ... splat on the hardwood floor. The echo was reverberating off the barren steel walls. It was driving me mad I tell you.

Slowly my eyes focused on the yellow number two. The bold black letters un-blurred and I saw RIO. Had I been transported to some exotic place? Then I saw the MA and wanted to who Ma Rio was. I didn't know a Rio or his/her mother.

My head was starting to clear and I was wonder what the point was to all this madness. Well, it seems there is no point to this pencil. I looked in the closet (long after sunrise) and couldn't find the missing point even though I was certain I had heard the sound of a yellow number two snapping in half.

Ok, well, my wife says I need to do something constructive now. If she only knew. I had the pencil stamped MARIO at work about four months before I bough my 4C. I was going to take a picture and say I had found Mario's pencil in my new car, but I simply forgot about it. When I was taking a picture of the shims, I wanted something common to use as a size reference. "A yellow number two", should be a world-wide common reference. Then I remembered Mario's pencil.

"Coming Dear."

 

Racer,
Do you know how he adjusted the caster? That is not specified in the specs I have.

 

Yes I do!

Oh, so you expect an answer?

The book says the castor can not be adjusted. I know enough about car geometry to know at a glance that the castor can be adjusted on the 4C.

The lower control arm has two mounting points and these are where the shims go.
1) Placing a shim at each point (2) will change the camber without effecting the castor.
2) Placing a shim (1) under only one point will effect both the castor and the camber.

This becomes trial and error on both counts. Read the alignment and make notes. Change something and re-read the alignment. Do again until you get what you want.

My wrench only added three shims to the left lower forward point. He left all other shims alone.

Set the tow last as the above will effect the tow.