[Racer Z]

Lots of good suggestions and good questions.

The car is stock, never modded. Only OEM parts have been used and only one dealer mechanic has ever touched my car, except the alignment shop.

She is on her second ECU. This was covered in another thread a long time ago. They could not turn off the 'change oil light'. This is probably a band-aid, not a cure.

The BCM or TCM controls the transmission. I'm not sure if there is a 'TCM', I just made that up.

I currently have 16,000 miles on her, and this just started within the last 1000 miles. About one or two months ago. I've owned her 15 months now.

I always drive in Dynamic manual. Two weeks ago I decided to try dynamic auto, as an experiment. So far, I have 200 miles in Dynamic Auto without issue, where in Dynamic manual it would fault every 30.

What changed at mile marker 15,000? Not my driving habits.

I'm not in manual now, so I'm not using the paddles. Possibility One. The paddles or the wires or the circuitry or the coding.

Soon I will try another mode, probably Race. See if it faults or not. Take notes and try another combination.

About computer programs. I'm a programmer of sorts, I am quite familiar with how this works, regardless of the language used.

There are code blocks, that get used or ignored depending on the many variables. Natural and Dynamic turn on and off a big chunk of code. Manual or Automatic will turn on and off another big code block, perhaps several. We call these blocks, 'functions', but the name doesn't change how it functions. lol

There are a variety of sensors that get monitored to insure everything is good. The computer (which one?, there are many, and they all communicate with each other) makes decisions based on the various inputs, which include human inputs as well.

Perhaps there is a sensor that is used in manual but not auto, or the code block for this sensor is different, manual VS auto.

I never had this problem during the first 14,000 miles, 13 months. So clearly something changed. Software is consistent, it doesn't change, unless there is a major failure of a firmware chip. At which point it would probably do the Windows 'blue screen of death' thing and drop into a grave.

A dirty connection could do it. A wire that has vibrated to much and cracked could do it. A chip that's vibrated loose from it's socket could cause these oddball symptoms.

 

[alfaguy]

Have you tried shifting manually while in auto?

You do realize you can override the auto mode momentarily by using the paddles without taking it out of auto mode?

 

[4Canada]

Have you tried shifting manually while in auto?

You do realize you can override the auto mode momentarily by using the paddles without taking it out of auto mode?

Thank you. At least somebody understood what I was trying to say!
If it doesn't fault in auto with paddle override, then it isn't related to the actual shifting points or mechanism/subroutine, but rather isolated within the "Manual" side of the equation.

Racer's point about "what changed?" is a very good one, though. Especially since some of the failures seem to be coming up at much lower miles than he has. And yet, many modified, harder-driven, and/or high(-ish) mile cars are not experiencing any issues. If I had to make a guess, i'd say corrosion, cold solder joint, or damaged wire somewhere. More likely in a sensor than in the hardware responsible for the activation of the transmission, as it shifts without faulting in Automatic mode.

 

[heelntoe]

I'm not sure manual shifting in auto will tell much. I suspect it should fail again - but it will be because the shift will be done using the manual code branch. If you notice, the car switches to manual before performing the shift which is why there's a delay in the shift actuation compared to already being in manual mode.

 

[4Canada]

I'm not sure manual shifting in auto will tell much. I suspect it should fail again - but it will be because the shift will be done using the manual code branch. If you notice, the car switches to manual before performing the shift which is why there's a delay in the shift actuation compared to already being in manual mode.

Yes…and no.

From what I recall (although I barely recall what the interior of my 4C looks like anymore) the car will not allow shifts in Auto that it will in Manual. So there may be different parameters.

But perhaps also not. I just thought this would be a logical place to go, after determining that full-on Auto worked without issue.

 

[Racer Z]

I am aware that I can still force a shift by using the paddles while in manual. The auto mode will undo that shift if it thinks it needs to be undone.

I also know that if I make to many changes at the same time, I don't know which one is responsible for the results. This could be a case of dynamic being the culprit, or the paddles, or both. I was thinking to test race mode next, but perhaps dynamic auto paddle makes more sense.

 

[Barth Vader]

I had my BCM replaced, as well as about every other module that they could replace. I will add the caveat that it is very possible I was sent defective parts like I received a defective replacement transmission.

 

[Racer Z]

I've been doing some testing of my transmission fault error. I've nearly 1,000 miles since I picked her up last. The fault seems to be isolated to manual mode only.

I've 200 miles in Dynamic Auto (no paddle shifting) without error.
I've 200 miles in Dynamic Auto (with paddle shifting) without error.
The same is true for Natural mode as well as All Weather mode.

All manual modes do fault.
30 miles dynamic.
2.0 miles natural.
2.5 miles weather.
100 miles race.

Let me explain race fault.
Early morning, no traffic. A few gentle up-shifts getting onto the Interstate. 100 miles cruising at a steady speed. A few gentle downshifts getting off and wham!

The good news is that when she fails, I can toss her into automatic and continue without stopping.

Once I got to this point of understanding, I've tried to make her fault in auto and can't. I've passed this onto my dealer who will in turn pass it onto AR.

In all fault cases, the fault code has been P1CC0, which the dealer confirms they've read also. A few other 4C owners with similar fault experience say they also have read this P1CC0 code. That's a private manufacturer code and I don't know exactly what it means, other than it is in the transmission somewhere. But, hey, we already knew that!

 

[4Canada]

Interesting results, and excellent work, Racer Z.
I think that this is just the kind of information that will allow Alfa to find the bug, and resolve it for everyone.
Suggests that the fix is quite possibly a LOT cheaper than a bunch of new transmissions after all. Maybe (possibly not everyone's problems) this can be fixed/prevented with a software update.

Still early days, for sure, but this is really good data to have. I hope Alfa Romeo takes it to heart. They don't seem to have come up with anything better on their end!

Thanks, from all of us, for doing this, and sharing.
(I know that putting 1,000 miles on your 4C must have been quite a hardship - Alfa should kick in for the time and the gas!!!)
:wink2:

 

[Racer Z]

Ass, gas or grass.

 

[sptcoupe]

Hmmm. Those are the same symptoms and messages and symptoms I had until I learned to keep my foot hard on the brake when stopped. I did a post on this some time ago. The dealer gently explained to me that this issue is most often caused by folks not keeping their foot on the brake pedal hard enough to get the car to go into neutral.


As a part of the fix (besides making me aware of the foot-on-the-brake issue) the dealer did a factory re-flash (the service bulletin number is somewhere in these threads) that enabled the tranny to recognize a lower strength signal from the brake switch and go into neutral. Before, I had to really get hard on the brake pedal before I could feel it go into neutral, because the tranny was looking for a stronger signal. So they just lowered the signal strength requirement for the tranny to recognize that it should go into neutral. Now it just takes a firm brake pedal pressure. And, even though he didn't suspect a faulty brake switch, he swapped mine out anyway, as a precaution (it's the same switch as the FIAT ABARTH).


Since that first incident I have made a point of keeping my foot hard on the brake when stopped, I haven't had a lick of trouble with it. The problem with the DCT is that the car won't roll at all if you lift your foot off the brake like a torque converter tranny does, so you can easily think you are in neutral when you are not, and those clutches will heat up quickly. I just think of the brake pedal as the clutch pedal on a manual tranny. You either put it in neutral manually or you depress the clutch pedal - which is the brake pedal for all practical purposes.


And here's a tip I posted a while back. When I am at really long traffic lights, I go to neutral using the N button. When 's time to roll, all you have to do out your foot on the brake and tap the + shift lever, and it goes into 1st.


But those codes and messages were exactly what I got, a well as the check engine light, and it went into a limp mode just as you described with all the same messages about serving the tranny, etc.


Sorry if you knew all this, but I certainly didn't until it was all explained to me. Hope it helps.

 

[Racer Z]

I will talk to my dealer about a re-flash. That is definitely worth considering.

1. Why does this only effect manual and not auto?

2. When I do take my foot off the brake, I can feel the clutch start dragging.

3. (race) The time it failed while I was in race, I never had a chance to stop. The car sat all night (engine off). I started out about 5:30 AM, cold air and no traffic. Got onto the Interstate with no stops and only a few shifts. Drove one hundred miles (literately) in sixth gear and exited the Interstate. Did a few gentle downshifts but never stopped. Tranny failed.

4. To be correct and complete here, system was warm and I reset error code before continuing.
4 A. (manual natural) Drove two miles, no stopping, no down shifting, trans failed.
4 B. (manual all weather) Drove two and one half miles, no stopping, some gentle downshifting, trans failed.

5. After it fails, why does work in auto? If I leave it in manual and put it back in gear, it pops out of gear after a few seconds. Then I put it in auto and it stays in gear indefinitely.

 

[alfa156s]

I did not have such issues on my car, but in last week when car was at service they program new code to transmission, it should fix all overheat and other codes. Check with dealer what is new software they have for transmission.

 

[sptcoupe]

That really sounds like a programming issue. That's the only reason the tranny works mechanically in Natural after a code is thrown. That is you limp mode. I would definitely get it in for a re-flash and update.

 

[mdpsk]

I will talk to my dealer about a re-flash. That is definitely worth considering.



Racer Z--Alfa has found a software solution for your problem. All of us with Alfa 4Cs made before Feb. 10 2015 will have this issue and need this software update. You can read the details here:


http://oemdtc.com/9542/transmission...t-to-natural-mode-and-not-allow-the-customer-to-change-modes-2015-alfa-romeo-4c


Transmission Over Temperature, Dynamic Car Control System may default to Natural Mode and Not Allow the Customer to Change Modes – 2015 Alfa Romeo 4C

By oemdtc On March 10, 2015November 12, 2015In Diagnostic TipsTagged 2015, 4C, Alfa Romeo, B1009, B1067, B10AA, U11BC, U1703


2015(4C)Alfa Romeo 4C
NOTE: This applies to vehicles built on or before February 10, 2015 (MDH 0210XX).

Cluster message “Transmission Over Temperature” that appears for a short time and the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) may turn on.
The customer may also notice that the Dynamic Car Control System may default to Natural mode and not allow the customer to change modes.
On further inspection, the technician may find one or more of the following Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs):

• B1067-67 VDSM (Vehicle Dynamic System Module) C CAN Signal-Signal Incorrect After Event.
• B1009-64 Brake Switches-Signal Plausibility Failure.
• B1009-67 Brake Switches-Signal Incorrect After Event.
• B10AA-4A Check Configuration Failed-Incorrect Component Installed.
• U1703-86 IPC (Instrument Control Panel)-Signal Invalid.
• U1703-87 IPC (Instrument Control Panel)-Missing Message.
• U11BC-00 Lost Brake Switch Message.

 

[foleydb]

All the TSBs that we know of, including the above TSB, are in clean document form on the 4C Cloud in the 4C Reference Material > TSB subfolder. The link goes straight there.

 

[Racer Z]

My car was made June or July 2014. I've had that TSB done. No harm in having it reflashed. I suppose they're ignoring that because it's already been done. But the ECU has been changed.

 

[Barth Vader]

I may have another piece of the problem figured out. With my LE, the problem occurred a few hundred miles after I had disconnected the battery to remove and reinstall the ECU.

Racer, your problem also began shortly after your car had electrical issues, during which the ECU probably lost its power source at some point.

It also seems that the problem is almost exclusive to NA cars.

So...perhaps the loss of power causes the ECU or some other module to default to a spec that doesn't jive with an NA car and it's extra weight.

 

[Racer Z]

Hmm, yes it seems so.

 

[4Canada]

My car was made June or July 2014. I've had that TSB done. No harm in having it reflashed. I suppose they're ignoring that because it's already been done. But the ECU has been changed.

Although it is worth a try, my understanding of the transmission reflash is that it affects the BCM/TCM, not the ECU.

However, possibly there are some interconnections which get updated.

Barth, we've now seen a few Aussie failures as well. Not 100% sure that the issue / cause is the same, of course.