@Scudrunner68 ,Post #23 in the link below will get you to the eLearn Manual but you’ll need to open a Microsoft account to open One Drive. I‘m unable to do any better.
https://www.4c-forums.com/threads/t...hreads/the-4c-cloud-table-of-contents.26921/page-3?post_id=1211017#post-1211017

 

Just trying to catch-up on some of the posts.
I did get ten years out of my original battery. That's about twice the expected life. It was still working OK, but I decided not to press my luck.

Low system voltage will produce all kinds of erroneous errors. Check the system voltage, with engine off and while running, before chasing your tail round and round and round and...

 

Hi 851duck,

Thanks for the info. I'm dealing with the same codes and everything I see is pointing to the gas pedal. I have an INNOVA 5610 scanner, and I can get a readout of the D and E signal move from approx. 13% to 88% and the TPS moves 12% to 14%. Do you know of where to get a parts list for the 4C?

 

The eLearn Manual for the 4C has parts codes all through it. I’m trying to find somewhere on the forum that has an operating link…It might take some time…If anyone knows of one please post the link.
Edit: i tried uploading my copy but the file was too large for this site to copy. Time for a site upgrade?

 

My experience with codes P2138, U11D4 and U0415

I have a 2015 none LE 4C with just under 15,000 miles. About a year ago while giving it the beans, it threw codes and went into limp mode. I simply turned it off then back on and it was good. Recently, it did this again. I pulled the codes and got the following: P2138, U11D4 and U0415. P2138 is correlation between TPS and accelerator pedal sensor issue. U11D4 is gas pedal signal issue. U0415 is invalid data from ABS control. I suspected the original battery so I replaced it with a nice new AGM one. Then it did it again, but I had to clear the P2138 code to be get the CELs to go away. It got worse then. I could not give the car any more than 10% throttle without it throwing the codes. Oh when it does throw the codes, it immediately cuts power and you better be in a position to pull over quickly because you have no power and are basically coasting slowly. I suspected the gas pedal because of the P2138 and U11D4 codes. I had my friend scan it with a much better Aultel unit and we could see the gas pedal signal at 77% when fully pressed and the throttle signal barely changing. This lead me to believe the throttle body was the issue. I removed and inspected it. It looked fine. I was able to get a used one from auto24parts.com for $160 shipped. It arrived in 5 days from EuropeI installed it and it made no difference. I then checked for 13 volts at the throttle body connector pins and 5 volts on the other pins there. Both were good. Decided to bite the bullet and took it to the local Alfa dealer. I picked it up yesterday and it was the gas pedal. It's a $800 Mopar part that Summit Racing will sell you for a little over $400.
I hope this info helps someone.

 

Back with an update now that I have an OBDLink MX+ device and the multiecuscan tool.

• Running an ECU scan or emissions readiness check does not find any fault codes, nor does it trigger the Christmas tree.
• Running a TCM scan finds code U0415-00 (error in communication with ABS module). Does not trigger the Christmas tree.
• Running an ABS module scan finds code "U0001-87 - C-CAN line error - Missing message". This triggers the Christmas tree. Mercifully as soon I disconnect the app from the ABS module, the Christmas tree disappears with no restart of the car required. I can confirm that I can enter dynamic mode at this point.

I googled the U0001-87 code and found this: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10185331-0001.pdf. It's a write-up of a similar issue with Land Rovers doing their version of a Christmas tree of death, where the problem is caused by damage to the wiring harness... so off to my mechanic this goes. The ABS and transmission still works fine btw, but I'd rather deal with this little gremlin before it turns into a bigger one.

@tibby -- really appreciate the suggestion. I think this finding is strong evidence that the ECU is okay however

This also means there is likely not an issue with my Autel AL-319 scanner, but my new setup gives me much more granular visibility (since I can connect to one computer at a time) which helped me isolate the problem.

Unrelated: while I was at it, I re-programmed the TPMS reference pressures to the correct values. Can confirm that the front reference pressure was incorrectly set to 29psi.

Again, super super appreciative of the wealth of knowledge on this forum and its helpful members!

 

Great information.
I’m pleased to read that you are getting somewhere with this.
Perhaps just corrosion on a connector, but now you / your shop have a system to focus on.
Good luck!

Also, interesting about the TPMS setting.

 

^ After 200 trouble-free miles with the new battery, today I plugged in my OBD scanner (Autel AL319) to the car just to try out the scanner's features, but the scan itself triggered the Christmas tree and the warnings that the hill holder and ESC were unavailable. Additionally, the scanner showed the error code U0415 (invalid data from ABS).

Simply clearing the code with the scanner & then restarting the car removed all these warnings.

However, when I conducted another scan, the Christmas tree & all the other warnings came back, as did the code U0415.

I repeated this a few times: scan, clear code, restart car, all with the same results. I scanned with the engine off & key removed, with the engine off and ignition on, and with engine running -- same results.

Also, U0415 does not clear -- if I cleared the code then re-scanned right away, I'd just get U0415 again.

I suspect the issue could be with the OBD scanner, the OBD port, or potentially an actual problem with the ABS module (very open to anyone's ideas!). To eliminate the possibility of the Autel scanner itself being an issue, I plan to retry this with a different scanner (a Bluetooth unit with multiecuscan) and will update with the results.

Car is a 2015 LE with the original TCM software, an Alfaworks stage 1 ECU, GMS turbo-to-intercooler pipe, and some upgraded hoses.

 

Maybe replace your AW ecu with oem one to double check?

 

Hi all, very appreciative of the wealth of knowledge on this forum — it helped me with my battery issue and I wanted to add my data point:

I have a 2015 LE, battery was replaced in 2022. Have put about 2300 miles on since the battery was replaced.

2 months ago:
Car sat for a month without a trickle charger, wouldn’t start. Used a battery jump starter and everything was fine for the couple drives I did.

1 month ago:
Car sat for another month, this time on a trickle charger. Wouldn’t start. Used a battery jump starter and all was fine. After 30 minutes of driving I shut the engine off. Car wouldn’t start. Used the jump starter again which worked but CEL appeared, and I was locked out of other drive modes.

Drove it home and then the Christmas tree appeared. Warnings for hill start, airbags, etc.

I came on this forum and got the car working again, here’s what I did:

1. Tested the battery voltage. 8.5 volts. Dead for sure.
2. Installed a new battery.
3. Removed a programmable exhaust controller that had stopped working properly a while ago and was likely causing parasitic battery drain.
4. Cleared the CEL with a scanner (code was P0685).

Car works perfectly again! Now I am monitoring the voltage regularly even with a trickle charger and will report back if any funny business continues.

 

Great thanks. I take it the spider battery and the coupe are the same then? I noticed that he didn't have the split rubber terminal cover that the coupe has.

 

It's a 2015 Coupe and as far as I know is on the original battery. It might have been changed but I don't see it mentioned in any paperwork. Are there any particular batteries recommended.

 

Battery is also 3AH stronger compared to oem Mopar one...

 

Just returning from a failry long drive and entering my street and a TPMS light came on. Then right after it said "No ABS Warning" (or similar). Then it said "No Airbags", by this point I'd parked in my drive and the engine cut out so I tried to start it again and got something like "Operation not available" or 'Can't complete operation". Car hasn't been used much over winter but has been charged up with a ctek. I went out again after 30mins and now the errors are all gone and the car starts.
Do I need a new battery?

 

Betting yes.
Model year? Original battery (if you know)?
First suggestion would be to ensure the terminals are tight. If you've never cleaned them, buy a $5 brush from an auto supply store and clean battery posts and wire terminals.
After that, I'd have battery and charging system checked. No point in waiting for the car to let you down. It's given you fair warning that something is amiss.

 

Ah best of luck @Alfanut ! Hope it turns out to be a quick and relatively simple fix for you. Did you manage to pull any error codes? Ha! I’ve started a thread on it just after Easter of this year. It has become an ongoing saga. I’m going to do a battery change as well but all battery tests come back as battery OK. The way it loses charge when not in use, I’m not too sure there isn’t something amiss with it. I’ve a code, but it’s the middle of winter here and I’m currently as warm as toast under the covers and going nowhere in month long lockdown with no immediate end in sight. I’ll post it when I can. Parts are not stocked by Alfa here and resulted in two lots of six-week waits, the current one I’m 3weeks into.

 

Hey folks! You can add my 2015 LE (~25k mi) to the CTOD list. Tried changing my battery out since it had never been replaced, and for good measure cleaned the terminals with a wire brush. Still continuing to get a U0415. I’ve also been receiving a U11DA:
Definition: Lost Driver Brake Torque Request Data, Cause:Antilock Brake System (Abs) Module Dtcs

Hesitant to go my dealership because I’ve had some really terrible service experiences with them (plus I’m out of warranty) but I may ask them to apply that secret software TCM patch that Racer mentioned.

Any other suggestions would be so very much appreciated!

 

I had (still have) a check engine light come on in my Giulietta (same engine and transmission as the 4C). After disconnecting and reconnecting the battery I got quite a few other faults appear including ABS failure. After driving for a while and a stop and restart at a petrol station the warnings disappeared. The only thing to reappear has been the check engine which is being investigated by my dealer as the car is under warranty. Awaiting another lambda sensor.

 

Wanted to add a data point here - had an electrical brownout at my place while the car was on a trickle charger. Didn't think much of it, but on initial key-on a few days later, got a ton of "invalid data signal" errors. Cleared codes and cycled ignition - seems to have fixed, will be monitoring.

 

But we’re the corgis ok?

 

@Racer Z Thank you, and thanks for the information. I've been lurking for a while, and I had seen this thread before I got the 4c. I am not that concerned about the transmission. I was trying to figure out whether I should go out of my way to get the dealer to update the software -- I'll just leave things the way they are.

 

@Racer Z Thank you for detailing your travails here! How many miles do you have on the car now? Hopefully the transmission has not given you problems since you got your software update ... has it?

Does anyone know if this software update made its way into a TSB? I recently got a 2015 LE, and I drive in dynamic + manual modes. The car has about 6K miles on it now and transmission works fine as far as I can tell (I did not buy it new, and I usually drive manuals so I don't have a good baseline for comparison).

Also, for folks who had experienced transmission issues, did any of you feel deterioration in how transmission worked prior to it malfunctioning completely or was it sudden (it seems like it was fairly sudden in a lot of cases)?

 

@Racer Z Thank you for detailing your travails here! How many miles do you have on the car now? Hopefully the transmission has not given you problems since you got your software update ... has it?

Does anyone know if this software update made its way into a TSB? I recently got a 2015 LE, and I drive in dynamic + manual modes. The car has about 6K miles on it now and transmission works fine as far as I can tell (I did not buy it new, and I usually drive manuals so I don't have a good baseline for comparison).

Also, for folks who had experienced transmission issues, did any of you feel deterioration in how transmission worked prior to it malfunctioning completely or was it sudden (it seems like it was fairly sudden in a lot of cases)?

Hi...
Current mileage: 39079 US Miles. Still my daily driver, well, that is when I don't need to use my work truck.
No, no and no.

• No, I've never had an issue since that software patch oh so long ago.
• No, it's never been made public, not that I know of.
• No, .... hmm

MIne was just "all of a sudden".

Not everybody has tranny issues. Enjoy the drive and don't worry about anything.




Oh yeah, Congrats on the used 4C LE.

 

Just a quick update on my "Christmas Tree of Death".... I have been doing some digging as to these kind of faults, and spent some time talking to the Alfa Technician here.

The basic root cause of the 'Christmas Tree of Death" is when a sensor gives a value that does not correspond with the other sensors. To put this another way using an example. If your throttle position is 100%, but engine speed is 700 rpm. Then you will get this "Christmas Tree of Death". There is typically lots of these cross checks that are occurring, so a fault in any one of these sensors could cause the issue. As others have noted, a low battery voltage could also cause the issue. In my case, the dealership has verified that I have a bad throttle position sensor and are replacing it. We will see if this completely solves the issue...

 

In my case, the dealership has verified that I have a bad throttle position sensor and are replacing it. We will see if this completely solves the issue...

How many miles (kilometers) on your 4C ?

 

I hate to say this but its very similar to the electrical problem that had my car stuck at Santa Monica Alfa for over 2 months before they finally figured it out. They never did tell me what it was but it was not the ECU because they tried that.

The easiest thing to do with any electrical problem is check the battery. After I had my battery replaced I threw a bunch of warning lights the first 5 minutes of driving. Then, on restart, they all went away never to appear again. So the batteries are really critical to the use of the sensors.

 

I hate to say this but its very similar to the electrical problem that had my car stuck at Santa Monica Alfa for over 2 months before they finally figured it out. They never did tell me what it was but it was not the ECU because they tried that.



The easiest thing to do with any electrical problem is check the battery. After I had my battery replaced I threw a bunch of warning lights the first 5 minutes of driving. Then, on restart, they all went away never to appear again. So the batteries are really critical to the use of the sensors.

Yes battery may have enough charge to crank the engine over but not enough to keep those sensors happy. But more importantly, why would the dealer keep the repair solution a "secret"... I would be very frustrated not knowing what was wrong on my car even if it was repaired...

Sent from my F8332 using Tapatalk

 

So I have had the battery on the CTEK charger for the past 24 hours, and I just took the car for a little joy ride and couldn't get any faults. :| :| :| :| It doesn't eliminate the battery was the cause of the gremlins, but I may just use it as an excuse to get a Braille or other LiPO version.

 

Thanks @Racer Z & @Call me Al. I expect these type of issues when you push the car on track. I have had 24 or so track days with my car with almost zero issues. The first two being the rear rotor drag, and now this. The rear rotor was 90% fixed at the track in 20 minutes (didn't figure everything 100% out until rebuild completed). This was the first time I had to call it quits and miss a session or whole weekend. I did try a few things at the track to see if I could correct the issue. I cleared the codes multiple times, but they kept coming back. The throttle position sensor is the one that kept coming back on. Which is why I think it is the root trigger of the periodic transmission error (but not 100% sure). I did try a battery charger for about 30 minutes at the track as I know our cars can be sensitive. It didn't take much of a charge. On the drive home, I probably had the car go into transmission fault about a dozen times. I have now left the car overnight on the CTEK tender, everything seems "OK" with the battery. I'm going to take a quick drive and see if I can retrigger anything.
@Call me Al - Interesting that you also have had the U0415 error. My ESC faults that have tripped me into "Normal" mode on track may not be related to that code, like I had assumed.

 

Okay.... So I have finally ran into the "Christmas Tree of Death" lights. I went to the track yesterday which is ~1 hour from the house. I drove all the way there in Dynamic mode, and had NO issues. I sat for about 2 hours before my first session, and I backed out of my spot and got the transmission failure lights and everything. I tried a bunch of diagnostics with my "cheap" OBDII reader. There seemed to be two basic issues. The "Check Engine" light seem to keep triggering due to a P2138 error, which my OBDII reader says is a "Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor Voltage Correlation" error. All this seemed to do is trigger the check engine light, and make the throttle very insensitive (you couldn't change out of Normal Mode either). This did appear (on occasion) to kick the transmission fault... Not sure exactly what is going on here.. I am also getting U11D4 (Manufacture Defined) and U0415 (Invalid data received from ABS control module). An engine restart seemed to clear the Transmission light. I ended up calling it quits at the track and drive home, but the strange part was that it periodically would trigger the transmission light.

Three pieces of additional information.
1) I recently rebuilt my calipers which did introduce a bubble in the brake lines when I inadvertently sucked the reservoir low on one tire. We had a hell of a time bleeding the system, but it does appear (and feel) that we got all of the bubbles out. So I'm not sure if there might be a small bubble in the ABS module/pump that could be causing the U0415 ABS issue. Thoughts?

2) I have ALWAYS had a tire speed difference on the left hand side of the car vs the right hand side. I have noted this with my VBOX, and have just recently started talking with the Alfa dealer about looking into this error. When I review my VBOX data from my drive home yesterday. I noted that the wheel speed seems to "hang" for a second or two before updating again. I'm not sure if this occurred before or after Transmission fault, as the VBOX records a few seconds after i shut off the ignition to get it to clear.

3) My car has not been driven much since my last track day in November. Only some of that time I have put it on the trickle charger. I have now had the charger on overnight, and will test if I get the problems again...

Car Info: 2015 MY with 16,700 miles

 

Okay.... So I have finally ran into the "Christmas Tree of Death" lights. I went to the track yesterday which is ~1 hour from the house. I drove all the way there in Dynamic mode, and had NO issues. I sat for about 2 hours before my first session, and I backed out of my spot and got the transmission failure lights and everything. I tried a bunch of diagnostics with my "cheap" OBDII reader. There seemed to be two basic issues. The "Check Engine" light seem to keep triggering due to a P2138 error, which my OBDII reader says is a "Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor Voltage Correlation" error. All this seemed to do is trigger the check engine light, and make the throttle very insensitive (you couldn't change out of Normal Mode either). This did appear (on occasion) to kick the transmission fault... Not sure exactly what is going on here.. I am also getting U11D4 (Manufacture Defined) and U0415 (Invalid data received from ABS control module). An engine restart seemed to clear the Transmission light. I ended up calling it quits at the track and drive home, but the strange part was that it periodically would trigger the transmission light.

Three pieced of additional information.
1) I recently rebuilt my calipers which did introduce a bubble in the brake lines when I inadvertently sucked the reservoir low on one tire. We had a hell of a time bleeding the system, but it does appear (and feel) that we got all of the bubbles out. So I'm not sure if there might be a small bubble in the ABS module/pump that could be causing the U0415 ABS issue. Thoughts?

2) I have ALWAYS had a tire speed difference on the left hand side of the car vs the right hand side. I have noted this with my VBOX, and have just recently started talking with the Alfa dealer about looking into this error. When I review my VBOX data from my drive home yesterday. I noted that the wheel speed seems to "hang" for a second or two before updating again. I'm not sure if this occurred before or after Transmission fault, as the VBOX records a few seconds after i shut off the ignition to get it to clear.

3) My car has not been driven much since my last track day in November. Only some of that time I have put it on the trickle charger. I have now had the charger on overnight, and will test if I get the problems again...

Car Info: 2015 MY with 16,700 miles

David,
Sorry to hear that but it happens to everyone a few times with all car makes (well maybe not a Toyota).
I may very well be the king of engine codes not that I know everything about them but I’ve certainly got my share probably more than anyone. Sometimes if you really don’t think there’s anything wrong in the car runs OK and natural mode just drive it like that at the track and practice your momentum driving. Try to push the car as much as you can without getting the traction control light to flash. You can also feel the brakes being applied. I feel it actually helps your driving and it’s better than not tracking. I spent two days at Fontana and wore out one and a ihalf sets of tires and a lot of brake pad material completely in natural mode!
The Christmas tree of death light show is misleading. It’s shocking when you get it as it flashes all these things and makes it seem like car has all these problems. Which makes it sound like your entire car has problems. But most usually is just one issue and the other ones just flash because that’s the way they designed it including flashing the transmission light.

That being said it sounds like you might have a problem with your throttle body sensor or something like that. Alternately might just have a bad cell in your battery! I had that be the cause of my light show once. These cars are very susceptible to voltage fluctuations.
Maybe have your battery load tested first or try to charge it up as that can tell you too.
Sometimes just clearing the problem with your scan tool and see it comes back. If it is a real problem it will come back. Then take it to the dealership with that code active so they can see it with their fancy code reader that tells the real story.

Oh and that ABS code my car has had that minor code ever since it was new and it seems to be nothing. It will never trigger any engine light and affect your brakes. Not sure if it even shows up on the dealership code scanner.

 

Warranty issue aside, whoever asked owner to drive the car to the shop rather than tow it without caution or diagnosis didn't really the customer's or the Alfa Romeo mark's best interest at heart.
A year ago I managed to 'DRIVE' my rattling 75 GTA clone to the shop and saved a nickle on towing charges. But rather than just change head gasket and maybe rings and bearings, I ended up melted bearings and cracked crankshaft and an expensive year long adventure in parts sourcing and fighting with mechanics who have better things to do with their time than to resurrect what they see as a dead 'old' car.
Our instinct as owners is to stop the car when something goes wrong. The very least the dealer should have done was to get car towed "as under limited warranty" and asses the situation (technically and commercially) in their shop without the risk of severe damage driving a damaged car.
My 2 cents...

Sent from my F8332 using Tapatalk

 

I will say, after reading this and looking up your past posts, you are lucky that they did not void your warranty and/or make you pay 100% for these repairs.

This was self induced. From this thread
http://4c-forums.com/16-engine-technical/55441-eurocompulsion-ecu-not-2.html

I have the Biesse tune from Alfa9.

It's a known fact that the tuned 4C's are blowing out the IC Pipes. There is a thread detailing this.

As such, I think the Alfa bashing in this thread is not justified.
People need to take responsibility for their actions.

 

.

As such, I think the Alfa bashing in this thread is not justified.

Not really... most of the problems with the Alfa dealership service department occurred in advance of their seeing the car. They were remarkabley amicable not long after the car arrived in their shop

It's a known fact that the tuned 4C's are blowing out the IC Pipes. There is a thread detailing this.

Put another way, this is a design flaw in the car, and will likely fail in all. We’re just advance testing for the rest of you!

There is no way to know what the real problem is.

 

Just a quick update. After another discussion with the dealership and talking it out calmly (which was mostly me after we got past the warranty flag), we agreed to work together on a full diagnostic routine. I agreed to pay a small not to exceed fee in case the fault was with the non-factory hoses or air filter and they would not red-flag the car based on further discussions about the hoses and filter with AR.

Turns out the primary intercooler hose had a blown seam issue, a bad clamp and an iffy negative battery terminal. The dealer replaced all the parts plus reset the ECU and only charged me half of the original diagnostic fee, waived the hose/clamp cost and the vehicle is clear now on the warranty. I am impressed to say the least and it was an unexpected turn of events today. I think the different approach is what worked although it took a while to get there. And now I know what to do before any future dealer visits. ;-)

 

I'm happy to hear this and glad you got your car fixed. It all seems smooth now, but was pretty ugly (jumbo shrimp -- pretty & ugly) there for a while.

 

Great customer retention strategy!

Sent from my F8332 using Tapatalk

 

Great customer retention strategy!

After a heated discussion, they will bring in an Alfa Romeo engineer to make a final determination if the problem with the mass air sensor is caused by the "non-factory" intercooler hoses (no way affects the MAS) and a replacement air filter (Mahle, but not dealer installed). If so, that section of the engine warranty will be voided (and off to court we go). In the meantime, they were nice enough to complete a full diagnostic test before the engineer arrives, date unknown. This is like the twilight zone. :wink2:

 

Well, the dealer is telling me the car is throwing an internal Mass Air Sensor fault code plus a few more that they will not discuss without payment since they will not proceed under warranty since I replaced the intercooler hoses. They are claiming the intercooler hoses have created the faults and since they are aftermarket, my warranty will be voided. WTH.

 

After a heated discussion, they will bring in an Alfa Romeo engineer to make a final determination if the problem with the mass air sensor is caused by the "non-factory" intercooler hoses (no way affects the MAS) and a replacement air filter (Mahle, but not dealer installed). If so, that section of the engine warranty will be voided (and off to court we go). In the meantime, they were nice enough to complete a full diagnostic test before the engineer arrives, date unknown. This is like the twilight zone. :wink2:

That totally sucks. To bad it's to late to put the stock parts back on and go to another dealer.

You can say to them, "Why should I recommend your dealer, or Alfa Romeo to the next person who asks me how I like my Alfa?"
"It's a great car to drive, when it drives, but it's in the shop more than on the road and the dealer can't or won't fix it."

The reality is that not all dealers would void the warranty because of the aftermarket parts. It would depend on how related the parts are to the problem. It's one thing if dirt gets past the non-stock filter and damages the engine internals, after taking the engine apart. It's quite another thing to give it a blanket void because of a visual glance.

But, they did give you a clue. "(Mahle, but not dealer installed)" Had you have paid them for the labor to install the intercooler hoses, then they'd honor the warranty. Somehow, you need to use this statement to your advantage.