[Barth Vader]

How much do the Aussie cars weigh compared to ours?

 

[4Canada]

How much do the Aussie cars weigh compared to ours?

It doesn't actually say on their website.
But I don't believe that any of their cars got the cooling vent, which suggests closer to Euro spec. But that's just a guess.

Edit: magazine article says 55lbs lighter than US car, but much more than in Europe.
http://www.motoring.com.au/alfa-4c-gains-weight-for-oz-48779/

 

[MJAB]

I will talk to my dealer about a re-flash. That is definitely worth considering.

1. Why does this only effect manual and not auto?

2. When I do take my foot off the brake, I can feel the clutch start dragging.

3. (race) The time it failed while I was in race, I never had a chance to stop. The car sat all night (engine off). I started out about 5:30 AM, cold air and no traffic. Got onto the Interstate with no stops and only a few shifts. Drove one hundred miles (literately) in sixth gear and exited the Interstate. Did a few gentle downshifts but never stopped. Tranny failed.

4. To be correct and complete here, system was warm and I reset error code before continuing.
4 A. (manual natural) Drove two miles, no stopping, no down shifting, trans failed.
4 B. (manual all weather) Drove two and one half miles, no stopping, some gentle downshifting, trans failed.

5. After it fails, why does work in auto? If I leave it in manual and put it back in gear, it pops out of gear after a few seconds. Then I put it in auto and it stays in gear indefinitely.

I will make some considerations based only on what I read on symptoms and tests You made, but not based on direct knowledge of all systems or components used in the 4C.

Since the problem happens only in manual mode, but not in auto mode, as You wrote, it not should a problem related to the mechanical/hydraulic or gearbox itself.

Some condiderations:
- The only mechanical/electrical components that are not active in auto mode are the paddle shifter (better to say that has not an active function over the transmission control software) and the control buttons for mode selection, reverse, ....
it should be composed of the switches + an electronic board(s) to convert switches input in CAN bus messages + the wiring.
- In manual mode is very likely that the software is always waiting for a change gear input but also for an "I am alive" message from the steering wheel paddle shifter board. If no "I am alive" message arrives for any reason than is probably that gearbox control logic, for safety reasons, to go in neutral.
To note that probably the software is derived from the one used in Alfa romeo Giulietta that has the gear lever as primary manual gear selection and the paddle shifter as option. So maybe the error management is not well written and instead to go automatically in automatic mode it goes directly in "I don't know what to do" -> go to neutral mode.

Reasons why it doesn't happens always? broken/defective sitch / soldering / component that when You pull the lever causes electric/eletronic troubles to the electronic board.

Maybe should be used a CAN bus sniffer/analyzer and logger instead of a OBDII logger to see what messages are sent or are not sent.

 

[disco volante]

1. Why does this only effect manual and not auto?

I just had an issue with a VW CC where all the steering wheel controls, horn and airbag are connected by a clockspring, including the paddles mounted to the steering wheel. I haven't even looked to see if our cars have a clockspring but if they do (or something similar) could it be what sends the signal from the paddles on the steering wheel to the ECM/BCM be the culprit?

 

[Rookie]

Racer, have you tried shifting in auto mode?

 

[JWA]

Racer said that he has tried shifting manually when in auto mode, with no issues. It sounds like a software issue to me.

 

[Saxon]

It doesn't actually say on their website.
But I don't believe that any of their cars got the cooling vent, which suggests closer to Euro spec. But that's just a guess.

Edit: magazine article says 55lbs lighter than US car, but much more than in Europe.
http://www.motoring.com.au/alfa-4c-gains-weight-for-oz-48779/

Sorry if this is off topic for the thread, but the earlier weight comments raise a query. If the Euro cars are 895kg, Aus cars 1025kg and US 1050kg, why are the 0-60 mph times (4.5 secs) quoted the same in each continent despite a there being a significant 10% weight variation?

 

[Racer Z]

Racer, have you tried shifting in auto mode?

Yes. This deserves a better answer, explanation.

My Illusive 4C is my daily driver. I drive in Dynamic Manual, without exception. After 15,000 miles, the transmission started acting up, as described earlier. Each fault seemed to happen sooner and sooner. I decided to experiment with other modes and started with Dynamic Auto.

At this point, 30 miles was the fault limit for dynamic manual.

It was hard to not use the paddles at first, as that's how I've been driving for 15,000 miles / 15 months. I chose to stay in Dynamic to eliminate multiple changes. If I make to many changes, I don't know which one is responsible for the results.

After 200 miles of my normal daily driving without fault, I switched to Dynamic Auto with paddle use. I racked up another 200 miles without fault.

When in auto and I hit the paddle, it's a very slow shift. The system has to convert over to manual mode, do the shift, then return to automatic mode. My confirmation is seeing the display change.

This also explains why some reporters claim the 4C has a slow, sluggish shift. They're in auto using the paddles.

After 200 miles in Dynamic Auto with paddle shifting, and no fault, I switched to Race mode. That faulted after only a few shifts. There was 100 miles of highway driving between shifts.

I then tried All Weather Manual which faulted in just a few miles. I cleared the codes and tried Natural Manual which faulted after just a few miles.

I then cleared the codes and put on about 150 miles in All Weather Auto using paddles.

The driving / traffic conditions where the same for these last three modes. If the fault is driving habits or traffic conditions, it would be faulting in all mode types.

Since then, I been using Dynamic Auto with paddles. I've been trying to make it fault now and it hasn't. I'll guess at about 100 miles now.

 

[4Canada]

Sorry if this is off topic for the thread, but the earlier weight comments raise a query. If the Euro cars are 895kg, Aus cars 1025kg and US 1050kg, why are the 0-60 mph times (4.5 secs) quoted the same in each continent despite a there being a significant 10% weight variation?

Discussed to death...


http://4c-forums.com/16-engine-technical/24497-0-60-4-1-4-5-one.html

http://4c-forums.com/16-engine-technical/6537-4c-0-60-a.html

http://4c-forums.com/27-usa/4298-0-60-1-4-mile-times-posted-motortrend.html

http://4c-forums.com/18-alfa-romeo-4c-reviews/3065-motortrend-clocks-0-60-mph-4-3-sec.html

http://4c-forums.com/27-usa/4298-0-60-1-4-mile-times-posted-motortrend.html

And if you care to believe auto journalists the heaviest version is also the quickest. And Alfa in N. America is quoting this in their literature now (with fine print crediting MotorTrend for the number).

Consensus is that:
A) journalists haven't a clue.
B) journalists make things up.
C) journalists have no familiarity with scientific methods.
D) 0-60 is less than 0-100 (= 62, which is not enough to account for the difference on its own).
E) they used the car's speedo in the USA, which is about 5% conservative. That would account for it.

 

[Racer Z]

Consensus is that:
A) journalists haven't a clue.
B) journalists make things up.
C) journalists have no familiarity with scientific methods.

That describes half the people I know. I never knew they were journalists.

 

[Saxon]

Discussed to death...

Thanks for the links..... as you rightly say, Discussed to death.

 

[Malibu4c]

I dropped away last July and got a Jag F-type coupe to fill the empty spot I had in my garage. I was thinking I would wait for the spider (with the tobacco seats) to see if AR would get its act together. I must say I feel RacerZ's pain, and admire his devotion to the brand.

I have a test drive for a 4c spider next week, but I'm a little concerned about this gear box issue. Have any North American 4c spider owners had the "insufficient brake pressure / transmission engagement" issue or is this a problem confined to LE owners?

 

[Racer Z]

Malibu4C Hey there. How do you like your F Type?

I've never had, nor heard of, insufficient brake pressure.

Still having trans issues, but only in manual mode.

 

[Malibu4c]

Hey RacerZ,

The Jag is sonorous, less clostrophobic than the 4c coupe felt (glass roof), but it lacks the directness of the 4c so my AR itch wasn't scratched.... hence my appointment for a 4c spider test drive next week. The spider will offer me more head room, and the raw driving experience I can't get from the Jag (plus I could wear a helmet wihen the spider's top is down).

The brake gear box connection in manual vs auto mode is very mysterious. If in manual the gearbox slips more between N and in gear, than it does in auto mode, the increased friction in manual mode (and heat) might explain why the system is going into a self protection mode (and wear will make the problem more acute as the gears accumulate wear).

The other issue is when mechanics start fixing stuff (including the wrong stuff) they can cause more problems. Soon you find yourself in a Nick Murray / Porsche situation. He went to the lemon law... He then went to a BMW M4 to listen to taped engine sounds.

 

[Racer Z]

Dropped my car off at the dealer today. Tomorrow the Alfa rep will be there and will look at my car, among other things.

They're going to explore several things:

- Transmission keeps faulting into neutral, while in manual mode only. Now it faults after about ten miles. This after sitting all night. Will never fault in auto mode.

- Clutch is slipping during upshift into third and fourth. Seems like I noticed that two weeks ago. Thought I was imagining things, buts it's slowly getting worse. This might by part of the fault into neutral.

- Stickers in door jams are all peeling off. These include important information such as the VIN number. By law I can't remove them. So, they need to get fixed.

- Front suspension is still clunking and getting worse. Dealer has looked at it numerous times, never finding anything. Yes, I had the TSB done, which is when the clunk started. I also crashed into a concrete wall. Both repairs were done at the same time.

- Windshield wiper squirter nozzles will be replaced. Somehow they came off or bent or something. Warranty job.

They put me in a loaner car for the duration. Dealer was out of Fiats, so they're paying for a rental. The company the dealer uses only had one car left, a Nissan Frontier crewcab. LMAO It's not any smaller than my Ford F250. It's got marshmallows for suspension and a radio almost as terrible as our beloved Parrot. And mushy, mushy brakes.

 

[MidLifeCrisis]

- Clutch is slipping during upshift into third and fourth. Seems like I noticed that two weeks ago. Thought I was imagining things, buts it's slowly getting worse. This might by part of the fault into neutral.

I am betting that the fault is going to be worn clutches. Perhaps that and a not unique/descriptive enough fault code being thrown so they are not able to zero in on the actual issue that is being detected by the transmission controller. I would expect that the transmission software has a lot more complexity devoted to automatic mode. They are basically making a simpler design replace a more complicated design using software (TCT compared to traditional automatic). That has to take a lot of extra complexity in the code path to pull it off reasonably or even gently.

That extra code/checks and balances/gentleness could allow worn clutches to still work within specifications successfully (in auto), where manual shifts may be too course/rough, with little concern for easing into it. If this is the case the trans would eventually even fault in auto mode if it is worn clutches as the root cause.

A similar hypothesis was proposed earlier in the thread, and I am leaning this way as well.

Note, more of a techie here, than a mechanic, so YMMV.

 

[Malibu4c]

How much is a new dry twin clutch? They use the same one in the mito, right?

 

[phaphaphooey]

I hope not. This is one of the reasons that I was concerned about the usage of dry clutches in this application vs the wet clutches that most other performance car manufacturers are using.

 

[MidLifeCrisis]

While researching the origins of the TCT, I ran across a recall based on its use in the Dart.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/201...dodge-dart-recalled-because-transmission-may-unexpectedly-shift-to-neutral.html

This may already be common knowledge and determined to be unrelated, but I thought I would post it in case.

 

[Racer Z]

The Alfa rep came and went. I wasn't there, but was told an interesting story.

They took turns driving my car without faulting the transmission. They would be the rep, the service manager and the mechanic. There is only one Alfa mechanic at my dealer. Finally the mechanic took my car out for an extended drive. About thirty miles later, the transmission faulted. He was stuck on the side of the road not being able to put it back in gear. LMAO... Welcome to my world. By this time he had confirmed that the clutches were indeed slipping in third and fourth.

I guess he let it cool a while and then was able to put in gear and drive back.

As near as we can figure, the clutch slip is a result of the actual problem. The clutch engagement and disengagement are both hydraulic actions. Unlike a conventional manual transmission, the 4C doesn't have a strong spring to engage the clutch. The fault code indicates an electrical issue. The electric voltage controls the hydraulic pressure. The hydraulic pressure controls the clutch action.

It's my guess that when the clutches slip, a heat sensor kicks in not allowing it back into gear until it cools.

Anyway, I'm getting my car back tomorrow so I can drive it while waiting on Mario's pencil to do magic tricks.