Also how much were the ohlins if you did install them

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Also how much were the ohlins if you did install them

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Depending on how much you want to adjust them, you’re looking at 6 to 10 grand.

 

Good thread-starter Floro as I’m thinking of choosing between these two brands for my annual splurge next year.

 

Good splurge plan. I think the KW are another option once they get the rears corrected. Once mine arrive correct, you should be good to consider them but until then, I would wait and see how this turns out.

 

My KWs arrived today. Hopefully all is good with them.


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Have you considered the Intrax ones?
Debating these or Nitrons.

 

If you spend 10k on suspension your out of your mind

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Some spend the bucks on what they can see and others in areas you don't. It might just save you from bouncing into a concrete wall if you hit a ripple strip too hard so it's horses for courses.
That being said, I'd want a really good deal to go in the direction of Ohlins. They are way over 10G's in our currency.

 

Nitrons R3 are affordable high end option for serious tracking. Good, reliable, customizable (spring rates), adjustable (High speed comp., Low speed comp., High speed rebo.) which makes them capable on track. I've been running them for 3 years and got some decent lap times with them. The only critics I have is the finish (steel parts), that could be better / more durable. Coating is quite weak it seems and winter salting of the roads marks them quite bad. I only drove them once on a winter day and they look way too "used". Other than that no negative comments. I went with Nitron because they offered the most performance for the price.

However, if I had to choose again, I'd go with Intrax 4-way to try something else and because I like technology and innovations and I'd be willing to pay extra for it (thermostate controlled oil flow in the canisters), adjustable spring preload and thicker slider rod which on MacPherson suspension is important to provide rigidity. Intrax also offers optional ARC system which allows to run soft spring rates, yet provide increased body roll control (that's what they say, I don't know if system actually works). However when you go for aero, you will need to go for stiff spring rates anyway, so the ARC system doesn't really matter all that much anymore. So if we draw a conclusion, the Nitrons are good and reliable high end suspension at an affordable price. Intrax 4-way XL seem to be more advanced in terms of technology, but price is higher too.

 

How about KW's V2 whats your impressions

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More affordable, less sophisticated (fixed springs rates, only rebound adjustable, internal oil reservoirs). Good choice for someone who doesn't want to fine tune suspension settings and prefers the "set it and forget it" style of use. Honestly, providing too much of an adjustability range to a novice user could actually lead to slower lap times due to messing up the settings, therefore a single adjustable, rebound only system, as KW V2 utilizes, is a great and affordable choice. Comparable with Nitron R1, but these also have customizable spring rates, but you probably won't go for custom spring rates if you are looking for R1 (rebound only adjustable) version anyway, so between Nitrons R1 and KW V2, I'd go with KW V2, due to price.

 

I have the "old" 3-way Ohlin's that Jamie sold quite a few years ago (not sure if you can even still get them). It is a nice suspension, but if I had to do it all over again, I would get the Nitron R3 setup. As @GMS mentioned more adjustability can create a "non-optimal" setup. Also, the access to the adjustability is almost as important as having that adjustability. A few things annoy me about the "old" 3-Way Ohlins. Namely, they aren't the quietest (squeaks), front remote reservoirs aren't the easiest to mount or adjust, and front spring rate isn't stiff enough for heavy track use. The Nitron R3s were just coming on the market when i bought the Ohlin's, and I wish now I would have bought those (basically were the same price).. The front Nitron are far easier to adjust since the canisters are mounted to the suspension. They also have far better aftermarket support from our vendors and should be able to be rebuilt when the time comes around. Plus it has slightly stiffer front springs, closer to my liking.

 

I don't mean to hijack the thread but I'm selling a set of used kwv2's if anyone's interested.

 

I have also a set upgraded to 3-way adjustable and have put them in and out more then ten times. The job for the front dampers can be done in under 1,5 hours.
The ohlins are high-end quality and you can get stiffer spring rates if required. Each single peace can be maintained or exchanged.
All adjustments can be done easily on the track, nothing to claim.

 

Man, the Ohlins are beautiful.

Why did you remove so many times?

Yeh you can just manoeuvre the fronts in and out, no need to undo any ball joints.

 

@AlfaRalle - Really nice brackets to hold them. Can you provide more details? I might try to remount mine like that.

 

The dampers got installed by Ohlins in Meuspath, Germany. The brackets are made by them.
When you remove the cover in the wheel arch, you can see the mounting points above the upper bracket of the front damper.

Maybe this picture helps a bit.

 

A few pics of the Nitron R1 setup...

 

How do you find ‘em in comparison to the originals?

 

I have Nitrons R1 and tracked/roadripped with them, I didn't get the R3s because my suspension tuning skills are next to none, and having 3 way would probably do more harm than good for me at this point.

I had a shop install them and they said it wasn't anything out of the ordinary in terms of difficulty. Don't have the salt issue since I live in California so can't comment on that

 

Just bought a set of R1 Nitrons. What were your starting settings for street and track?

Brandon

 

So nobody had any fit issues or had to force them on? The KW front coilovers fit perfectly and bolt straight on but the rears didn’t and when checked against the KW drawing and dimensions, were not accurately made.
The replacements they sent are also off but better. I’m trying to work out what’s normal with how rear coilovers fit from other brands.

 

I was contacted by Nitron regarding my comments on their products. I wrote "Welding and finish could be better. They look like shit after a single winter run" and they were concerned about my statement. That was in prevous post, but I have revised it a bit because it sounded too aggressive and negative towards the Nitrons, although all of you that are here long enough know, that I have always praised the Nitrons, and those of you who know me personally also know that I'm quite straightforward. If somethings is good, it's good, if it's not it's not.

Nitrons are very good, with a room for a minor improvements. Based on my long time use of them (4 years), here are the things that would make me give a rating of 8/10 instead 10/10. We also need to be aware that 10/10 is something that should be reserved for a perfection without a slightest room for an improvement. Failing to follow this principles, doesn't lead to an improvement.

Facts:

• Brand new package received - and the adjustment spanner tool was missing pin (it fell off). I was send a replacement spanner free of charge when I ordered additional springs, but the feeling of opening a brand new box and something is already dismantling remains.
• Finish - I actually drove only 1 day in a winter in 2017 on a salty road and the bottom part of rear coliovers looks messed up. They turned from black to green and have weird stains all over it.
• Servicing - I recently paid 600 GBP VAT EX. for a "full" service. I know the focus is on internal parts, but for that price, I would expect to get the coilovers back at least a bit refreshed with some touch-up or refinish. My first reaction when I opened the package was "Did they actually do anything?".
• Technology - As mentioned, the Intrax 4-way seem to wield superior technology (thermostat controlled piggyback reservoirs, adjustable spring preloads, ARC damping), but before actually driving a sorted out 4C on Intrax 4-way, I cannot backup that statement. Perhaps it's just marketing.

So we discussed things a bit and came to conclusion:

• I was told I run "early" version of coilovers with different finish of steel bottom part. They notified me that later versions have different / superior coating to maintain better looks over time.
• We both agreed that welds are technically good and could be aesthetically improved but they need to keep the costs down, so that's it.
• The servicing pricing is comparable with Ohlins, KW and others, but my comment was on the service itself not so much on the price.

I believe that posts and feedbacks like this will help the fabricators to improve and customers to get the best. Knowing that Nitron does mind our opinion is appreciated.

 

Thanks for the clarification, GMS.

We know that you don't BS or needlessly criticize products from anyone. And your opinions are valued here. Regardless of what Nitron might have to say about them!

You could have just posted a picture of the way they look, and said "this is after being serviced, and only driven once on salty roads", but instead gave us a very fair description the first time.

I hope that the clarification post above mine was completely voluntary, and not coerced in any way by them.

 

It was completely my decision because I re-read the my post again and indeed it seemed a bit too negative. It was Friday and I was out of my coolness. I just revised the selection of words a bit, while the comments are still valid and I stand behind them. Nitrons were always helpful and cooperative with me and even stated according to this "delicate" post of mine that they are willing to improve things for me , so I have decide to try to make things better for everyone.

Here are the photos:

• Picture 1 - 6 (Poor finish, salt corrosion)
• Picture 3, 5, 8 (Welds)
• Picture 7 - 8 (Weld and durability comparison between steel parts on GMS and Nitron. We use CrMo steel and electrophoretic coating to prevent corrosion resistance. In the pictures are prototypes of my GMS rear control arms wiped and cleaned and so are the Nirons - wiped and cleaned)
• Picture 9 (New version of improved Nitrons rear coilover steel parts)

 

If your involvement has resulted in better quality for customers then very well done, Rudi.

 

I dont like the fact that said big company called little company and seemingly .... "advised" him into their preferred opinion of there own product ......this is how it seems flr average reader of these posts

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I'm having Nitrons fitted next week. Shall update sometime after about the fit/ finish & performance.

Cheers,
Hedge

 

Many thanks in anticipation. R1’s or R3’s? Looking forward to your post either way.

 

R1's. The choice was made for me by Jamie (Porter). He said I'd spend too much time fiddling/ adjusting the R3's to warrant buying them, for my intended usage. That being mainly road with the occasional track day slung in.

Cheers,
Hedge

 

That’s my thinking too. Nice to know others more knowledgeable than myself think the same.

 

Stock height, 1G corner, base OEM suspension with rear sway bar deleted, front sway bar upgraded to Alfa Track Pack version (1mm thicker):

 

Is this general advise I might also take? With the KW V2? The chaps are still waiting for my coil overs to arrive so I could tell them to ditch the sway bars.

 

I’m going to let the experts respond.
I would think it depends largely on how stiff the KW’s are, and what you will do with the car.

 

Suspension, steering and chassis setup is very complex. Swaybars, springs, damping, alignment, they all affect the handling and are tightly related to each other. Changing one spec, affects others. It is impossible to say that one setup is the best on all aspects and drive conditions (weather, track, surface...). It might be an overall good setup, that works decently on a street, yet is very capable on a track, but it's not perfect. It's a compromise between these two. Track cars are too stiff on a road and street driven cars are too soft. Damping (rebound mostly) and swaybars allow you too quickly fix that to a certain level, so swaybars are a good tuning tool and are used also in F1 and other top level motorsports, however they do have limitations and are not to be considered as a solely upgrade to improve your suspension. They should be considered as a part of suspension tuning.

Spring stiffness
If road comfort is not an issue and you are looking for a fast track setup with still driveable car on the street, go as stiff as you can that your car will still be driveable on the road. If you'll go stiffer, the car will feel skittish and harsh and will rather fly over bumps and imperfections than keep the connection between the wheels and the ground. It's dangerous and it is not fast. On the street, you want the suspension travel to "work". On a 4C, for fast street setup, which occasionally might see the track, I'd suggest 52 N/mm (front) and 70 N/mm (rear). For track focused 4C, I'd say 65 N/mm (front) and 80 N/mm (rear) is as stiff as I would go to still have the car streetable. Of course, running an aero package, the spring rates should be stiffened up accordingly to prevent the car from bottoming out at high speeds. Car with soft springs and huge wing at the rear will glide like a speeding boat with front end higher than the back, messing up all the handling. Stiff springs are a must on aero effective cars.

Swaybars
Swaybars / ARB's are a very effective tool for tuning the suspension. As some of you have mentioned above, there are pros and cons. By working smart you can use them in your own advantage. Automakers prefer to add swaybars to rather soft spring setup, over stiff springs and no swaybars, because this way they prevent the car from excessively body rolling, yet maintain the ride comfort. 4C is such case.

Swaybars can be used to stiffen up the car in corners and prevent excessive body roll, especially on stock setup, but they won't solve the dive and squat issue.

Adjsutable swaybars are far superior to non adjustable swaybars, because as the name says it, - they can be adjusted, while non adjustable, are only on/off, which rules out the chance of adjusting understeer / oversteer characteristics.

Adjsutable swaybars are the best way too quickly change the understeer/oversteer characteristics of the car. Let's say you go to a fast open track, with long sweepers where you definitely don't want a tail happy 4C, so you put the rear swaybar from stiff to soft and you get much more planted rear end, with entire car more prone to understeer, which in this case, on this track, won't be an issue as understeer is a slow corners issue. Now, you're running a decent lap times and the rain is coming for the final run. This same setup will be much too stiff in wet to get any decent lap times out of it. The grip will be severly reduced, therefore the alignment (negative camber) will be far too agressive to utilize entire tire patch as the car will lean far less now and you'll end up with a totally incompetitive setup. Again, swaybars are your savior. Soften or even disconnect them to allow the car to body roll more, to get the tire patch back to the ground and generate more grip. Next week, you go for an auto X with slow and tight corners, where this same setup will understeer heavily. Reconnect the swaybars, set the front to soft and rear to stiff and the car will nicely rotate through the tight corners with this prone to oversteer setup. None of this adjustments are possible without adjustable swaybars, unless you change the springs, which is not really doable.

Ditching the swaybars, will require you to run stiffer springs and more aggressive alignment to compensate for body roll and you will be left without any adjustment for understeer/oversteer. In 4C's case, it is the design of the swaybars, that renders them not too effective. They have very long leverages are hollowed and small in diameter, so in OEM format they are not too effective. Proper swaybars for 4C should be adjustable and massive (in diameter) to make a difference to a handling. However, going too stiff with swaybars will provide suspension binding which is mostly noticeable on rough surface (street) and not much on the track. Some car run axle beam at the rear, yet they are fast on the track, because the surface is usually smooth and suspension travel is only few cm up and down, so suspension binding due to swaybars is not a problem. On other hand, in extreme case - offroad, you don't wan't swaybars at all to allow the tires to work independently and maintain the grip. The biggest issue I have with swaybars set to too stiff at the rear is the inner wheelspin on tight autoX tracks, but this is something LSD should fix soon. Of course added weight is a minus too, but it is at the lowest point of the car so it shouldn't be too much of a concern.

Damping:

Damping is a tuning of suspension's rebound and compression. How fast they extend and how fast they compress. Some coilovers have more adjustment than others and some have none. These settings only affect the corner entry and corner exit. If your car is tail happy on corner entry, you crank up the front compression and crank up the rear rebound. If your car understeers on corner exit, you crank up rear compression and crank up front rebound, and so on. If your car is understeering in mid corner, these settings won't help, but swaybars will.

So what would be an ideal setup:

It all depends on your planned use. A street setup is different from track setup as we have mentioned above, so understand your needs and don't follow others. Setup that works for others might not work for your needs, your tracks and your tires or perhaps, it's not good at all. I was always down on power compared to other competitors, so I had to find through the corners and braking what other gained on me on the straights, therefore I always spent lots of time fine tuning my suspension and alignment, so the suspension tuning is not such a black magic to me as it was when I first got my adjustable KW V3's years ago on my previous car. It requires a good understanding of theory of suspension (to know what to change) and lots of driving (to get the feeling of the car and required changes). I also keep a log book for each event where I write all the details (springs, damping, swaybars, alignment, tire pressure and personal notes). I also run different setup from track to track and for wet and dry and I always look in to the log book when I need to set it up accordingly as it is simply too many settings to keep them all in the head.

Spring rates:
According to your use (street / track / tires). Follow the upper recommendation for good baseline setup

Swaybars:
Adjustable

Damping:
Single adjustable (rebound only) is a great choice for those who don't plan to fine tuning the suspension much. If you want to install and drive, than that's it. You can soften the rebound for street driving and then crank it up when you go to the track few times a year. A very versatile setup for majority of trackdayers.

Fully adjustable (rebound, compression,...). for those who like to push the limits, like to learn and research. For "grinders" who visit same tracks over and over again and never get bored of looking for a perfect lap. I have two tracks that I know very well and these two serve me as a reference for fine tuning. When I go to a new track for the first time, I never tune the suspension, but use a solid previous base setup. Once I know the track well and I know the limit is in the car not me, then I start fine tuning the suspension.

Alignment:
Best and simple advice would be. Use your entire tire patch. Cars that roll a lot and are somewhat soft on the spring rates, should run more negative camber than stiff cars with less body roll. We do provide recommended alignment setups for our customers which serve as a base line, but the perfect setup will require more individual approach.

LSD:
Yes, please. There are no negative effects of LSD and every sports car should have it. The only reason they don't, is the cost and rebuild cost (clutch type). I plan to get one for next season - Drexler LSD clutch type.

 

@4Canada, I think @GMS should have a kind of GMS_Wiki thread for posts like these. Only he can write and edit to thread, so that we noobs don’t spam/pollute thread, is that possible? Rudi has a number of these posts of massive value, but it could be beneficial for the community to have a “compilation” of these, it’s starting to get difficult to find them later on...

Edit: I’m sure we can trust Rudi a thread for knowledge, that he’ll use it for knowledge, not advertisement.