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Your goals are contradictory. Optimum settings for the track that will give less understeer will make the car more sensitive to poor road surfacing and cause tramlining. My car is more or less neutral with its current settings but it is a bit terrier like on crappy road. A post Pit Stop car will be rather civilised on the road but it won't be as neutral or as fast as a more track oriented one.
 
Your goals are contradictory. Optimum settings for the track that will give less understeer will make the car more sensitive to poor road surfacing and cause tramlining. My car is more or less neutral with its current settings but it is a bit terrier like on crappy road. A post Pit Stop car will be rather civilised on the road but it won't be as neutral or as fast as a more track oriented one.
Hi Tallin, could not agree more and that is why I was after optimal "road settings" rather than track ones. I was just after the best compromise to deal with understeer/tramlining....In my modest opinion understeer is the most annoying issue but I would wait for the experts (such as you) to give their opinion....
 
What did you drive before the 4C? Much of the "trick" with countering the understeer in a mid engined car is to bring speed into the corner and turn with weight on your front wheels. Either by trail braking or simply lifting to put more load on your front wheels.

Personally I don't find the 4C excessively understeering on the road even on stock settings.
 
Well, first of all let me begin by saying that, although I consider myself a pretty good road driver, I am nowhere near your standards......:)
My DD is a BMW; on the side I've mostly had classic alfas (GTV, bertone, alfetta, 75, etc.....) and also a 911 (a 1989 3.2) which I did not like at all!!!!! Thus, you maybe right in thinking it is a driving style/capabilities issue........:-(
Nonetheless, I have driven other mid-engine cars (caymans, boxsters, and a couple of ferraris) and never quite found such a prominent understeer. in my opinion also the (typical turbo) power delivery accentuates the problem. Also, it seems to me as if many people underline this characteristic of the 4C....
that's why I was after the "ideal" road compromise...
 
I am sure that upgrading suspensions is the definite solution. Nonetheless, playing around with camber/toe in, spacers and tyres things should improve quite a bit.....
 
Well, first of all let me begin by saying that, although I consider myself a pretty good road driver, I am nowhere near your standards......:)
My DD is a BMW; on the side I've mostly had classic alfas (GTV, bertone, alfetta, 75, etc.....) and also a 911 (a 1989 3.2) which I did not like at all!!!!! Thus, you maybe right in thinking it is a driving style/capabilities issue........:-(
Nonetheless, I have driven other mid-engine cars (caymans, boxsters, and a couple of ferraris) and never quite found such a prominent understeer. in my opinion also the (typical turbo) power delivery accentuates the problem. Also, it seems to me as if many people underline this characteristic of the 4C....
that's why I was after the "ideal" road compromise...
One of the biggest differences between a 4C and a Cayman is that while Alfa has worked very hard with mass centralisation, almost all heavy components bar the radiator are located near the engine, Porsche has gone the other way and put the fuel tank, battery, all radiators and a luggage compartment at the front. Doing that they give away much of the agility of a typical mid engined car. On the other hand they gain stability and easy road manners.

I really like the Alfa way but I will agree every day of the week that it isn't the most accomplished GT out there...

The fact that you find both the 911 and the 4C not so fitting to your driving style is probably because you drive in a front engined way. When we (LE customers) went to the driving academy at Varano THE big thing was working with weight transfer and driving with your feet rather than with your hands.
 
I follow and agree with your train of thoughts; still, I somehow doubt that the understeer is all about the driving style. There must be some congenital aspects of it in the 4C. I recently went for a road bashing with a friend semi-pro 911 (964) driver and, he was driving!

His 964 still belongs to the classic 911s with a very light front-end and even he thought that the understeer in the 4C is very pronounced. It seems to me as if many other owners and journalists also reported the same issue. BTW: my friend also thought that the issue is easily fixable by doing some changes to wheel alignment (in particular he suggested front camber).

BTW2: this is how my face looked during the drive....:wink2:
 

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The 4C is for sure set up for traction more than for front grip. And I'm not arguing with you, after all I have also changed camber to make the car more neutral.

Problem is, by doing that you also make the car more lively and sensitive to poor roads. For me it's not a major concern as I have my car primarily as a track toy but if you spend a lot of time on questionable B roads I can for sure imagine it being tiresome.

Thing is, if you adopt your driving style you'll get around it, enjoy awesome traction and have a safe car behaviour. I drove 8.19 on the ring with the suspension in 100% stock settings and nothing but brake pads changed on the car.
 
So you are saying by adjusting the camber to neg 2 (the most I plan to go), the car will be more sensitive to poor road ?
I do not drive above 88 mph btw.
Thanks
 
So you are saying by adjusting the camber to neg 2 (the most I plan to go), the car will be more sensitive to poor road ?
I do not drive above 88 mph btw.
Thanks
Somewhat, yes. And -2° is the most you'll get without major surgery anyway. Do you plan to change rear camber as well?
 
It's hard to say as I have only driven the car stock and with both ends adjusted, not with the front only changed. I took the lead from some Lotus friends and looked at the wear patterns to guesstimate the angles. Not exactly rocket science level. In the beginning I found it somewhat twitchy, at least on the Trofeos, but now I'm quite happy with the setup.
 
Thanks. Come to think of it, you use the Trofeo, that is for track, and high speed driving.
I do not plan to bring the car to track yet, not until next summer. I do not think I will need anything that aggressive for street driving.
May be even a neg 1 or 1.5 like racer Z had would be fine.
still, an alignment is needed for peace of mind.
I used to have the same problem with my Boxster S, so I think the issue is there with mid-engined cars. At least on the Boxster, I throw a bag of rice (somebody called me ricer I think) in the front trunk and that fixed the problem. With the 4C I do not have that option.
 
Has anybody ever considered/tried fitting larger wheels in the front? Say 19" rear and front? Or 18" rear and front. Shouldn't this increase grip in the front-end however at the expenses of handling?
Perhaps this could also be a solution for improving understeer and high speed stability???
 
Has anybody ever considered/tried fitting larger wheels in the front? Say 19" rear and front? Or 18" rear and front. Shouldn't this increase grip in the front-end however at the expenses of handling?
Perhaps this could also be a solution for improving understeer and high speed stability???
Fronts are made have a smaller circumference, changing that will make the electronics go bananas as well as upsetting the geometry. Also, a bigger rim does not in itself raise the grip level.
 
Discussion starter · #76 ·
................................... front --------|| ........ rear ----------
.................. caster; .... camber; . tow || ..... camber; tow --
............. left; right; . left; right; ----- || .. left;. right; -------
Before: +3.0; +2.3; -0.5; -1.0; -1/16 || -1.70; -1.60; +1/32
..After: +2.1; +2.2; -1.0; -1.1;.... 0.0 || -1.80; -1.60; +7/32
..Spec: +2.1; +2.1; -1.0; -1.0;. -1/16 || -1.75; -1.75; +1/4

I have about 8,000 or 10,000 miles now since my alignment. 14,700 total miles. That was about four months ago.

The tires are almost worn out now. The rears are worn the most. The wear is nice, even, flat across all tires.

The car feels great on most road surfaces and conditions.

There was some confusion (still is) about the alignment specs. I really need to go to a different shop and get confirmation about what my current specs are, cause these are working good.

My driving usage/style is: This is my daily driver. I drive on all road types and in all conditions. Well, it never snows here. Whether it's a short trip to the market or a long vacation, we take the 4C. I only take another vehicle if I need to haul something that won't fit in the Alfa. That's why big, ugly trucks were invented, and mine is a good example of ugly and big.
 
Where did you order the front shims from? And does anyone know where they have them in stock?

Just wasted time on the phone with the parts/service dept at Fiat DTLA, they were arguing with me that no such thing exists and to adjust front camber your replace your worn ball joint (??!). Well that settles that my car will never see the light of day there if this is their understanding.

Anyways, shims...thank you so much for all this info would love to find some since my suspension goes in on Mon :)



................................... front --------|| ........ rear ----------
.................. caster; .... camber; . tow || ..... camber; tow --
............. left; right; . left; right; ----- || .. left;. right; -------
Before: +3.0; +2.3; -0.5; -1.0; -1/16 || -1.70; -1.60; +1/32
..After: +2.1; +2.2; -1.0; -1.1;.... 0.0 || -1.80; -1.60; +7/32
..Spec: +2.1; +2.1; -1.0; -1.0;. -1/16 || -1.75; -1.75; +1/4

I have about 8,000 or 10,000 miles now since my alignment. 14,700 total miles. That was about four months ago.

The tires are almost worn out now. The rears are worn the most. The wear is nice, even, flat across all tires.

The car feels great on most road surfaces and conditions.

There was some confusion (still is) about the alignment specs. I really need to go to a different shop and get confirmation about what my current specs are, cause these are working good.

My driving usage/style is: This is my daily driver. I drive on all road types and in all conditions. Well, it never snows here. Whether it's a short trip to the market or a long vacation, we take the 4C. I only take another vehicle if I need to haul something that won't fit in the Alfa. That's why big, ugly trucks were invented, and mine is a good example of ugly and big.
 
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