[DanK]

All the suggestions above are good but I would start getting comfortable with the car as-is.

Warm up the tires find a nice parking lot or skid pad, drive the car in Dynamic / Manual and slowly give it a bit more gas around the corners. Get use to the feedback from the car, and the steering ratio.

The electronic nanny in the 4C is pretty good.

Like the 914 the 4C is totally underestimated and under appreciated as is.

 

[finalleaf]

Is that in race mode though?

Yes, you can see the G meter and the yellow dash

 

[lpspeedster]

Mindset thing. The way to look at it is that a mid-engine car is more willing to do what you want. You don't have to constantly argue and put in large requests with severe trail braking/throttle steering. You can finesse it and it will rotate like a ballerina. You should be dreading the fight with the front-engine car, not the delightful cooperation of a mid-engine car.

Agree,
to the OP

• I don't find the 'more power' to be the issue (I am just as scared in the 4C as the 360) but wasn't in my former suspension modded c32/M3 etc
• THINK .... SPINNING TOP, the mass in a mid-engine is in the middle so will perpetually spin (with virtually no weight on the front/back ends).
• with your 944 (one of the BEST Balanced cars and easiest to drive fast) you also had a 50/50ish distribution. Difference? You had WEIGHT on the Front (Engine) and Back (Transmission/Transaxle) as such you could pivot weight transfer and power to the rear and guide yourself out of trouble...most of the time.

Heck, even a 1980's 911 with ALL the weight in the back gives my butt a better understanding of what is going to happen.
- KEY is Finesse ....like a Prima Ballerina (wait....didn't someone already say that???)

 

[DirtyEvo]

I feel much less alone now!!

this actually has been helpful and interesting and informative.. lots of good ideas and insight! THANKS!

 

[GMS]

@GMS in video #3, at around 1:01 mark where you lose it... that's unsettling given the orientation of the car and your hands and the track. Were you braking and did the kerbs upset the rear much to contribute?

You seem to have slid into the corner well and there wasn't much, if any, request by you to rotate the car... and you end in a spin.

I hit apex on the right too early and consequentially went too wide on the next one - the left, drove over the curb with wheels on the grass and I lost it. That day the car was very unstable. I had it set up with far too much rear toe in (+0°23' per wheel) and the car was snappy. No warnings, no 4-wheel slides, just instant snap oversteer. I had a few nasty moments before that happened but I kept, pushing and pushing and eventually spun off the track. It was a very good lesson that if something doesn't fell right it probably isn't. And it wasn't.

That 38/62 sounds terrible but after you tested the turn in and see how non existent the under steer is, how hard that weight pushes the rear wheels into the road, it sounds perfect 50/50 is neutral, benign but without utility.

I'd say 45/55 would be ideal. On 4C you can tell just by the heat and wear of the tires that the rear end is doing an extra work all the time compared to the front.

 

[FLORO]

I hit apex on the right too early and consequentially went too wide on the next one - the left, drove over the curb with wheels on the grass and I lost it. That day the car was very unstable. I had it set up with far too much rear toe in (+0°23' per wheel) and the car was snappy. No warnings, no 4-wheel slides, just instant snap oversteer. I had a few nasty moments before that happened but I kept, pushing and pushing and eventually spun off the track. It was a very good lesson that if something doesn't fell right it probably isn't. And it wasn't.



I'd say 45/55 would be ideal. On 4C you can tell just by the heat and wear of the tires that the rear end is doing an extra work all the time compared to the front.

I must admit, this is the first car I’ve had that doesn’t blunt the shoulder on front tyres, no matter what you do. My 3 year old factory Pirelli were cracked and perished but still 4mm tread on outside shoulder! That’s unheard of for my experience.

 

[Sir5n]

Good thread and great insights.

 

[DirtyEvo]

All the suggestions above are good but I would start getting comfortable with the car as-is.

Warm up the tires find a nice parking lot or skid pad, drive the car in Dynamic / Manual and slowly give it a bit more gas around the corners. Get use to the feedback from the car, and the steering ratio.

The electronic nanny in the 4C is pretty good.

Like the 914 the 4C is totally underestimated and under appreciated as is.

This i like and will do... its basically what yo do in a driving or race school initially when the put you on the skid pad to feel the car at / beyond the limit..


To the peson who commented on the 944S2 being so perfectly balanced.. my God.. YES IT WAS.. That car was amazing in some ways.. i mean, not particularly fast and not everybody loves the styling, and it didnt have razor sharp sports car handling (more of a GT for sure) but so well balanced. Never a pucker moment because you always knew what was going to happen. At 130mph on a curvy mountain road it felt as planted to the ground as it did sitting still. Weird, but my Datsun 510 race car is PERFECTLY balanced also in similar way and it makes it very predictable and easy to push 10/10ths.. yet, at the same time I think that perfect balance has actually hindered my growth as a driver. The car is TOO good. Tryign to learn how to push my finicky and prone-to-snap-around SRF to the limit is proving way more difficult and frustrating and thus, probalby making me a better driver in the process. I have to work way harder to drive perfectly.. my 510 (and the 944S2) would let you get away with mistakes. I think if i get time to get the 4C out on track or even skid pad / parking lot work and just time driving, it probably will help me become a better driver also. challenging. I like that.

 

[chimera]

GMS’ videos have just about convinced me that my 4C will never see a track. I don’t even understand what went wrong and I’m not even a tenth of the driver he is. And they were all in the dry without any significant complications or difficult driver workload.

 

[Alfanut]

GMS’ videos have just about convinced me that my 4C will never see a track. I don’t even understand what went wrong and I’m not even a tenth of the driver he is. And they were all in the dry without any significant complications or difficult driver workload.

Go on, with those uniballs and alignment you’ll blitz it at the Creek.

 

[DirtyEvo]

GMS’ videos have just about convinced me that my 4C will never see a track. I don’t even understand what went wrong and I’m not even a tenth of the driver he is. And they were all in the dry without any significant complications or difficult driver workload.

i was watching thos wondering what tires and suspension mods.. pulling 1.6g through corners pretty nice for a street car!

 

[GMS]

GMS’ videos have just about convinced me that my 4C will never see a track. I don’t even understand what went wrong and I’m not even a tenth of the driver he is. And they were all in the dry without any significant complications or difficult driver workload.

Don't think like that. A single track day is worth a year of daily driving your 4C, believe me. You'll get so much more familiar with the car. You don't need to go full send right away. Drive in your comfort zone and slowly work on your skills.

Well, I'll be honest. My reputation among other drivers is that I'm a bit on a wild side of a driver, hence a decent collection of fails and code brown moments caught on a tape. I drove my cars 10/10, 11/10, 9/10. A bit over and a bit under the edge, always aiming for that perfect lap with 10/10. On a 4C it will rarely happen though. I rarely hit the perfect lap, driving 10/10 with all the apexes and braking points tackled perfectly.

4C is very capable car, but not forgiving at 10/10, let alone 11/10. You can drive 9/10 and without major driver errors (throttle lift off mostly), you'll be fine. At 10/10 it must be done perfectly (perfect driver inputs) and at 11/10 it's a Blitzkreig. Fast and precise, flawless hand reactions without any additional driver errors (throttle lift off) is a must or you'll loose it. Trackwidth is very wide and wheelbase very short, so once the oversteer starts happening and it will at the limit, it is instant, fast, a surprise. Too fast in, and there is nothing you can do about it. You will oversteer if you want to stay in the perfect line. At that point if you over-correct the oversteer, you'll end fishtailing and you'll lose it. If you under-correct the oversteer you'll spin.

Perhaps in the attached videos it looks like everything was done fine. Believe me, it wasn't. In video 1 I was overwhelmed by adrenaline and wanted to overtake where I shouldn't. To avoid rear ending the Lancer, I had to move on the grass and with the wheels on a grass and throttle lift off I fishtailed and spun. In video 2, the rear tires were already slightly overheated and I intentionally increased my entry speed by 2-3 km/h (too fast in), so the entry was 11/10 which resulted in oversteer. In video 3 it was a combination between incorrect car setup (alignment) and driver error (missed apex and wheels on the grass).

Here are two somewhat perfect lap by my book, driven 10/10:

• Imola

• Grobnik

4C is handful in the wet:

 

[goldmax]

Yes, you can see the G meter and the yellow dash

So on the track in Race mode you rely on some big run off areas in case things go wrong? If the track is a tight one with barriers close do you stay in D mode ?

 

[DrPyro2k]

@chimera - As others have noted, and track is a fun and SAFE way to understand your car and car dynamics. There are a few members on this forum that are very good drivers @GMS and @4CRacer, just to name a few (there are others, and I apologizes that I missed your name - I haven't had my second Latte yet this AM). No one starts off as a driver with F1 skills. You must learn and practice, practice, practice. Good instruction with a HPDE (High Performance Driving Education) organization is key to learning to drive on track safely and is really the best way for inexperienced drivers to learn the skills required. You will be SLOW when you start, slow on corner entry, slow through the corner, and slow on exit, and then drag race everyone down the straight.... This is ALWAY what happens with novice track drivers. As you progress in skills, you get better about setting up the car for higher speed corner entry and all through the corners. THen being able to feel and manage the traction through and out of the corners. That is what makes a car/driver fast, the corners.... It isn't about who can brake the latest, it is being able to manage speed through the corner.

As @GMS noted, the 4C isn't the easiest car to drive on the limit stock. But at 7 to 8/10, you can have a marvelous time with the car even in stock form. A few minor mods (Uniballs in the rear A-Arms, G-Loc seatbelt, and better brake pads), and the car can take you a long way (and be very quick on track). If you want something easy to drive fast, get a Porsche.....

And if you are super worried about wrecking your car/baby, then you can pay the $ and have track insurance. I do it... It isn't "cheap", but it is "cheap peace of mind"

 

[finalleaf]

So on the track in Race mode you rely on some big run off areas in case things go wrong? If the track is a tight one with barriers close do you stay in D mode ?

Depends on the track, if it's the first time I'm running a track, I'll run at least a session or 2 in D mode to figure out lines and speeds, afterwards switch to R. Unfortunately in Race you are relying on driver skills and if something goes really wrong, track insurance. If I didn't have track experience before the 4C I definitely would leave it in D for much longer as even in D it allows quite a bit of slip.

 

[DirtyEvo]

@chimera just to echo what GMS said and maybe add just a tiny bit.. even if you NEVER go beyond 7/10ths doing "track days" (HPDE) in your street car, still, one track day is worth a year of daily driving. Chimera nailed it. If you go with a group that has an in-car instructor with you and you get a decent instructor and you allow yourself to listen and learn, you can learn so much about yourself, your driving, the car, without ever pushing to the point where you are anywhere NEAR going off. You won't have the fastest lap times to brag about or the "oh shit" videos to share, but you will still learn so much and build a stronger understanding of your car and how you and your car can better work together. Its 1000% worth doing. Don't try to push it to the limit.. think of it as a driving school to learn and push a LITTLE BIT MORE.. but nowhere near the limit. Think of yourself as novice when you first do it.. no shame in that. Thats the best way to learn.. Both GMS and DrPyro2k so rightly point out you can have a marvelous time at 7/10ths... but you also will learn a TON and be a safer, better, more fun and happier driver of your car. Even if you never push 9/10th or 10/10ths. If there are walls and your track does not have runoff, then dial it back a notch.. and definitely get IN CAR instruction.. its helpful.

I did track days.. a LOT of them in several differnt cars, for about 6 years before i jumped to wheel to wheel racing. Racing is DIFFERENT.. its not the same as track days. Its SO DIFFERENT. But even now, years into racing, some of the things i learned even on my very first track days are relevant and i come back to them always. Every time i am on the track racing, i apply some of those things i learned while driving 7/10ths on the track in my street car in the begginning. Hell, some people would say i still only drive my race car 7/10ths.. haters gonna hate! LOL

 

[RKBerta]

That 38/62 sounds terrible but after you tested the turn in and see how non existent the under steer is, how hard that weight pushes the rear wheels into the road, it sounds perfect 50/50 is neutral, benign but without utility.

The US version has 40/60 distribution compared to the Euro version with 38/62 so a slight advantage....that is due to the extra beefing up to meet US crash requirements.

 

[lkone]

I hate the 4C factory open diff because it only ever drives one wheel at a time. This is why it loses grip on that one wheel quite easily, and then swaps the power to the other wheel, making the car twich and want to fishtail.
If you didn’t let of the throttle, it will switch the power between the rear wheels till either one of them grips. It makes the car rear wheel torque steer too.
I had a locking Wavetrack diff installed and now it drives as it should. BOTH rear wheels hook up and the grip on launch is amazing. The car go straight like a dart.
when you lose grip, you lose it evenly and progressively. Over steer or drift is fun now, as it should be. I always light them up from T junctions

I also upgraded my rear suspension with GMS race arms. These take out the slop that also ruin the handling. I had then done at same time as the diff.
Also tyres... Michelin, The End.

I'm thinking about an LSD and see Alfaworks offer a Quaife. May I ask, why you chose the Wavetrack (did you look at others), who fitted it and what locking values is it set at? Thanks.

 

[FLORO]

I'm thinking about an LSD and see Alfaworks offer a Quaife. May I ask, why you chose the Wavetrack (did you look at others), who fitted it and what locking values is it set at? Thanks.

The Quaife, isn’t an LSD as you know it. They can’t lock. They are closer to an open diff than an LSD.
The Wavetrack is a geared diff like the Quaife but with unique cams that lock the diff up like a plate style LSD but unlike a plate LSD, there are no friction wear components.
It was fitted by Alfaworks. I purchased the Wavetrack directly and supplied it to Jamie.

 

[lkone]

Interesting, thanks.