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An example of their products

They would look amazing behind your new forged wheels
The Carbon ceramic rears for the Ferrari 458 fitment are very close to our factory front item.
I bet they could shave it down a few mm for us.
Make it even lighter!!
More info. Apparently the pads are made of the same stuff! They only need to make them in moulds from our pads and the kit will all fit like our factory discs and pads!

 

An example of their products
View attachment 127429

They would look amazing behind your new forged wheels
The Carbon ceramic rears for the Ferrari 458 fitment are very close to our factory front item.
I bet they could shave it down a few mm for us.
Make it even lighter!!

Group buy would help Floro...

 

This would be very nice for track - I would expect the significant rotating mass reduction on such an already light car would be very noticeable.

My only question/concern would be if shaving this much off each corner might trigger a need for new springs or at least some type of suspension change.

Thanks for looking into this!

 

Besides squeal, worse cold braking performance, and the cost to replace rotors, I don't see a downside.

In all honesty, ceramic rotors are more of a talking point than of practical use. You don't need them on a street car - especially one as light as the 4C that already stops on a dime with stock pads and cast iron rotors.

Their party trick is weight, for sure. But how much faster do you need to get to the Cars & Coffee? Their other major benefit is heat dissipation, but for road use that isn't going to be an issue. Other benefits are that they don't corrode and dust is minimal.

Cold braking is compromised. Most people will never get carbon ceramic brakes up to their optimal operating temperatures. As a result, they squeal. Like city bus kind of squealing (seriously). And while they are squealing because they are cold, they are also wearing faster than they should. That noise is not only annoying, it's expensive. We'll see what these cost - would be interested to see.

You'd think they would be great for the track. Developed for Formula 1 racing, they are great, but not the kind of thing that casual track day drivers or low-budge racing teams can afford to replace as frequently as you might have to when tracking your car. As a result, you'll see a lot of tracked Ferrari and Porsches with two-piece steel rotors, the carbon ceramics sitting in a box in the garage.

They are a neat talking point, and the weight savings is not trivial, but be sure you know what you are getting before you buy.

 

Besides squeal, worse cold braking performance, and the cost to replace rotors, I don't see a downside.

In all honesty, ceramic rotors are more of a talking point than of practical use. You don't need them on a street car - especially one as light as the 4C that already stops on a dime with stock pads and cast iron rotors.

Their party trick is weight, for sure. But how much faster do you need to get to the Cars & Coffee? Their other major benefit is heat dissipation, but for road use that isn't going to be an issue. Other benefits are that they don't corrode and dust is minimal.

Cold braking is compromised. Most people will never get carbon ceramic brakes up to their optimal operating temperatures. As a result, they squeal. Like city bus kind of squealing (seriously). And while they are squealing because they are cold, they are also wearing faster than they should. That noise is not only annoying, it's expensive. We'll see what these cost - would be interested to see.

You'd think they would be great for the track. Developed for Formula 1 racing, they are great, but not the kind of thing that casual track day drivers or low-budge racing teams can afford to replace as frequently as you might have to when tracking your car. As a result, you'll see a lot of tracked Ferrari and Porsches with two-piece steel rotors, the carbon ceramics sitting in a box in the garage.

They are a neat talking point, and the weight savings is not trivial, but be sure you know what you are getting before you buy.

i agree. They are mostly a talking point, especially for those of you who actually track your cars. Most of us whom do track, switch out CCB’s for steel rotors due to how fast you destroy them. Most Porsche GT cars run steel on the track. If you have a big budget, CCB’s are nice. I have them on my quadrifoglio and they are nice on the track, but after the first track day, I could see significant wear on the rotors afterwards. The brakes on the 4C are so good in the stock form. The car is so light that there isn’t much water on them and they never seem to overheat on the track. I have had some 35-40 minute sessions with no fade. As far as the cool factor, they would look cool if they were much larger filling the entire wheel, but that would require a larger caliper as well.
And like you mentioned, they do need lots of heat to work properly. They are sketchy the first few minutes of driving.

 

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It’s purely about unsprung weight reduction for me.
I’m convinced ours is the root cause of the cars handling issues. The front suspension has to be too highly sprung just for it to travel quick enough.
It’s not about how fast I travel, it’s about how fast my front coilovers travel!
I do take on board about the temperatures and squeal but I can’t hear anything other than the engine in the 4C and I like a challenge of managing my brake temps, driving accordingly, learning to get the best from the compromise but I do accept that that is what it is.

 

…They also don’t need replacing as often as steel discs…But my concern is, that on the road, when in an emergency and your carbon brakes aren’t up to temperature, how well will it stop?

 

Drag racer/space shuttle style parachute would look cool

Seriously though… cars that weigh 3 times what ours do come with carbon ceramic from the factory. If they can stop in hurry, cold, we can easily. Range rovers, Audi Q7, BMW X5 all have CC options. If it’s not a problem for them, it won’t be for us.

 

For track and for us amateurs....ceramic disks are expensive luxuries for street or weekend warriors. Many people that have cars that came with them, go back to steel for their car when tracking. I agree that the squeeling of cold brakes will drive you and the public crazy. Don't know how expensive this experiment would be but normally those types of brakes will be rediculously expensive.

 

Many people that have cars that came with them, go back to steel for their car when tracking.

I went to a Porsche club meeting at a race-prep shop and they echoed your exact words, RKBerta.

 

I’m talking to a Chinese maker of CC brakes.
Can you see any disastrous consequences to this idea?

Yes, they are made in China!!!!

 

Volvo is synonymous with safety here in the UK.
Even with our dodgy weather conditions NOBODY has yet died in an XC90. That’s why I bought one for my family wagon. Guess where they are made

Lots of street cars have them. There’s no epidemic of these cars failing to brake in time.

The two point are JoeCab’s about calibration/software for the ABS and stability controls, and that most cars that use these are 1/2 ton (or more) heavier than the 4C and therefore heat brakes up far more quickly than our cars might.

I don’t know how those two things will combine to affect braking performance, which is already more than enough for the street.

Personally, I don’t think the unsprung mass is a problem in the front of our cars. My fronts on stock non-track-pack springs stay stuck to the asphalt in heavy braking on track.. Even on a relatively bumpy braking zone, it’s the rear that dances around, and that needs to be addressed by better suspension (probably about the same cost as this mod). If you’ve already got the upgraded shocks, then perhaps this is something to try next. Very interested to hear performance reviews, but it’s hard to measure so will be mostly subjective.

I have GMS arms, KW V2 and uniballs front and rear. That’s not the issue. High unsprung weight requires spring rates that don’t respond well.
The aim is to reduce the unsprung weight and reduce the spring rates.
Manufacturers aim for no more than 15% unsprung weight. Our front axle weight is at least 50% unsprung.

It’s not really under braking. It’s when you accelerating, when the front goes light and bounces around.

 

We have the carbon ceramic brakes on our Giulia QV. Most of the downsides you hear mentioned - squeal, poor cold performance, lack of "pedal feel" - really have been a non-issue.

The real upside is that they barely dust at all, and feel immensely powerful. And, for street use, Alfa basically says they are rated for the life of the car - or 2 track days. Yes, they can get very expensive when tracking the car.

Now - that application was designed around the carbon ceramic brakes. There are many differences between the Giulia QV with the ceramic brakes and the Giulia QV with steel brakes - software calibration being the most important. So I'm not sure you can expect the exact same results when retrofitting carbon ceramics to a car that wasn't designed for them.

 

That’s a valuable point. Do you know if the ABS pump is the same? If it is, the techs I use can probably compare the different Giulia QV strategies and see what needs doing.

 

In a couple of years, the whole 4C will be made in China

 

Unfortunately you are right... Chinese companies already own most of the famous Italian brands, they replace the products with cheap stuff made in China, yet retain the name. What a sad world we live in!! Thank you Globalization!!!

 

The Chinese are asking for data. They say they can’t find any.
Where can I find the most comprehensive detailing of our OE brake system together with drawings and dimensions? Any help would be great!

 

Fronts are 305x28mm, rears 292x22mm

 

And as to the holes, these are for the hub and lug bolts (salient bits hilighted):

just found this out in the manual
for refrence the lug bolts are M12 x 1.25 and 17mm
they should be torqued to 72ft/lb or 98NM

The standard wheel specification is

Front 7Jx17" H2 et 33, rear 8Jx18" et 44

or

Front 7Jx18" H2 et 33, rear 8.5Jx19" et 49

98mm PCD

58mm bore

5 stud

 

That’s great info. We need dimensions like rotor/bell/disc offsets and we are there I think!

 

On cars that offer both steel and carbon, the ones I have observed it's not just the rotors and pads that are different. They have different calipers per application. I have never dug into why that is.. i.e. it could be that the increased caliper size is to also make the buyer feel/show they have an "upgrade". I don't know there is a material or performance reason for the difference or not. But, I do know on for example the Jaguar F-Type, the entire mechanical side of the braking mechanism is completely replaced between the two offerings (i.e. pads, rotors and calipers which typically also means brake line adjustments).

 

I believe it’s about perceived value. Asking £10k for a pair of discs would be a step too far.

Here’s why I think we will get away with it.
Our callipers are top notch with pad area comparable with pads for CC brakes, proportionately to the disc size. It looks right to me.
The skinnier 28mm thickness correlates well to our vehicle weight. A Lamborghini or Mercedes has 32-34mm thick CC Rotors but they weight twice as much and have twice the hp. 28mm is more than adequately thick for our car, I’m convinced. The Chinese engineers will have the final say and new callipers with the set are not out of the question. I would just prefer to achieve the ultimate. Our 4C factory brakes on steroids.

 

I don’t argue that buying Chinese stuff to save money is a bad thing but to support a Chinese communist party dictatorship with atrocious human rights abuses and increasing ambition for global expansion with my discretionary spending is not for me.

 

Do you feel the same about fuel, mineral and food imports from Russia that finance the genocide in Ukraine? Or Saudi Arabia who are committing atrocities in Yemen killing hundreds of thousands of men women and children as we speak? You wouldn’t support that by buying any Saudi oil based fuel would you? It’s slippery slope. The moral high ground is great if you can afford it.

 

Being a Chinese and also in manufacturing (printing to be exact) my opinion is certainly bias.

It is true that there are billions of junk product coming out from China, but there are also tons of quality stuff being made as well.

You won't believe how many test, overkill QC and social responsibility audit is required by my customers. There are even live VOC monitoring devices on top of every printing press to make sure we are within regulation. The fuse in one of the device blown once, and the "environmental control department" showed up within an hour checking if we are cheating with the data...

All I can say is that there must be some good and some bad manufacture / people in every country. My Tesla P85+ was made in USA, and the service record must be as thick as my old SAT Prep Guide

 

Found this
OEM Specifications:
Front:
Manufacture: Brembo
Part Number @ Left (Driver): 20895801
Part Number @ Right (Passenger): 20895802
Piston Number: 4
Piston Size: 38mm (Aluminum)
Axel Leading/Trailing: Trailing
Axial Pin Separation: 130 mm
Axial Pin Offset from Rotor Center: 50mm (approximate)
Rotor Diameter: 305 mm
Rotor Thickness: 28 mm

I’m happy to test a CC pad/rotor kit with our car as is and address issues if and when they arise.

 

You might be wise to get a set of stock rotors (there are some used for sale on the board right now) and send them to the manufacturer, so that there are no surprises or misunderstandings.

 

Double post or not, for transparency and avoidance of misunderstanding, the only reason I’m pursuing this is because of the incredible pricing available direct from Chinese manufacturers. The rotors are around $1400 each. They are high end spec too. They are made with long fibre carbon, happily work while glowing and last 200,000 km. The makers say they do work well enough from cold too.

Keeping the OE rear brakes would avoid issues with the E-diff and halve the cost of the kit. I think the biggest improvement would come from the front upgrade anyway.

 

I’m talking to a Chinese maker of CC brakes.
They are checking to see if they have the mould for our pads so they can make carbon ceramic rotors and pads for our factory Brembo callipers.
The base price is very reasonable indeed.
The Chinese salesman hasn’t said there’s any issue doing this but knowing what a clever, knowledgeable bunch you all are, I thought I’d mention it. Can you see any disastrous consequences to this idea?

I’m talking to a Chinese maker of CC brakes.
They are checking to see if they have the mould for our pads so they can make carbon ceramic rotors and pads for our factory Brembo callipers.
The base price is very reasonable indeed.
The Chinese salesman hasn’t said there’s any issue doing this but knowing what a clever, knowledgeable bunch you all are, I thought I’d mention it. Can you see any disastrous consequences to this idea?

As a guy who owns a fabrication facility in mainland China, I would very heavily warn you that unless you take the time to go to the factory and observe their processes etc, you will absolutely be in for a big box of surprises if you decide to go into any sort of production.

Also-there is a strong 90%+ chance that you are not dealing with the actual manufacturer but are more than likely dealing with a Trader who is posed to be the actual factory or factory rep.

Outside of that-it will be an adventure for sure.

 

It’s a lot cheaper and easier to evaluate a sample. If it happens, my set will be that sample. If it’s good, then a group buy might come together but I’m not invested.
The seller has a good rep and the products they show look legit. They have a ton of certificates and pictures of facilities that seem plausible.
To be honest, I suspect they will decline to even make the kit after the engineer sees the brief.. replacing iron brakes into carbon brakes using the iron brakes dimensions and callipers.

 

Why, this car has lots of brakes and up to 110 mph the unsprung mass is negligible.

 

@jamiealfa has carbon ceramics on his Alfaworks site. Any dimensions available there and would he recommend them for daily driving?

 

@jamiealfa has carbon ceramics on his Alfaworks site. Any dimensions available there and would he recommend them for daily driving? Not cheap!

 

Not that I can find. Link?

 

I’m talking to a Chinese maker of CC brakes.
They are checking to see if they have the mould for our pads so they can make carbon ceramic rotors and pads for our factory Brembo callipers.
The base price is very reasonable indeed.
The Chinese salesman hasn’t said there’s any issue doing this but knowing what a clever, knowledgeable bunch you all are, I thought I’d mention it. Can you see any disastrous consequences to this idea?

this would be great. No more brake dust!