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Why am I such a sissy with mid-engined cars? Long pointless post, need a break from work

7.2K views 57 replies 26 participants last post by  HeavyFoot  
#1 ·
Ok.. not sure this is the right forum or if this is off-topic. But... it does involve my inability to drive my 4C as it deserves to be driven.

When i had my Miata ND, I was ok getting the rear and just a little loose on a public road now and then... you know nothing crazy or high speed or where it would be dangerous to others (ok.. honestly its never ok to play like that on public roads and i do know that.. its not ok.. but when I do it, I really do choose carefully the time and place). My Datsuns, never bothered me to let that rear end move a bit. Even back in the day with my first Evo, the occasional brief 4 wheel drift (god that car was fun in the dirt!). Hell, even old pickup trucks I had back in the day. Nothing easier to get a little sideways in than a pickup truck! Nothing crazy, just a little slip angle here and there on a tight turn or maybe taking on a left or right turn onto one of my local backroads... whatever. just that amount the traction control lets you get away with (don't want any more than that on a public road EVER). Even used to do it in my 944 or even my mom's 5.0 mustang back in the day.

But in noticed.. in my 914's I had.. and my Cayman and now my 4C.. I don't .. I don't even push it anywhere NEAR there. It terrifies me. (not literally, but I mean, I am aware I am more cautious) Something about a mid engine... and its not that i don't understand how to drive a mid engine car. I am a solid driver... on the racetrack and off. I study, i understand the dynamics, race, I drive a LOT, have had good private instructors, blah blah blah. Have driven mid-engine cars since I was 17 years old.. and many many track days in a 914-6 and a Cayman S. Hell, I even race a mid engine car (the SRF has the engine just in front of the rear axles). and frankly I am not very good in that car! Yet.. I still have this fear of the unexpected with them. A few high speed offs in my SRF is helping get over the fear in that one, kind of.. but still not quite there. I drive my front engined race car (Datsun 510) 10/10ths.. but my SRF, think its like 8/10ths and I feel like "WHOA... this is hairy!!".. its not. But I am constantly convinced its going to bite me (then it does !! )

WHAT THE HELL IS MY PROBLEM? I think a few track days in the 4C when i get around to it will help me and the car get familiar with each other. That will help some. maybe a little skid pad work too. But I remember even with my Cayman and 914.. so so so many track days.. and I was fast and drove well.. but there was just that extra little caution I had compared to what I did in my BMW e30 or my Datsuns on the track . I never want to let the mid-engine cars get a little loose.. the front engine RWD cars. NO PROBLEM.. I will steer those with the backend as needed. But the mid-engine cars.. nope.. that is the threshold i fear crossing. Rear tires must maintain grip. (of course, on the track i sometimes would get the rear out on them.. but it always made nervous when it happened.. not comfortable at all)

So.. um.. psychoanalyze me.. what the heck do I need to do to get past this mid-engine fear. I've driven them.. pretty hard... for almost 35 years.. why am I still more scared of them than a traditional front engine / RWD car ?

I think ONE issue with my 4C and with all of them is that they are a lot more powerful... so there is a lot more speed involved or more power to just really lose control with. I mean, back in the day, my 290hp Cayman and 270hp 914 vs my 138hp at the wheels Spec E30 or 105hp Datsun 510 or 185hp Datsun 510.. that is a HUGE DIFFERENCE I guess. The slow, low hp cars were easier to throw around and feel in control. And while i feel confident throwing around the low hp car.. i mean, I will toss those cars around like a lone sock in the dryer.... something with more power sitting right behind my head scares me ?

I should get a therapist maybe... wonder if i can find a hot brunette one with olive skin and short skirt.. yeah.. therapy sounds good... hmmm..
 
#2 · (Edited)
I hate the 4C factory open diff because it only ever drives one wheel at a time. This is why it loses grip on that one wheel quite easily, and then swaps the power to the other wheel, making the car twich and want to fishtail.
If you didn’t let of the throttle, it will switch the power between the rear wheels till either one of them grips. It makes the car rear wheel torque steer too.
I had a locking Wavetrack diff installed and now it drives as it should. BOTH rear wheels hook up and the grip on launch is amazing. The car go straight like a dart.
when you lose grip, you lose it evenly and progressively. Over steer or drift is fun now, as it should be. I always light them up from T junctions :)

I also upgraded my rear suspension with GMS race arms. These take out the slop that also ruin the handling. I had then done at same time as the diff.
Also tyres... Michelin, The End.
 
#4 ·
I felt the same way until I had a set of Rudis’ Uniballs fitted. I felt all at sea because I had no confidence in the rear of the car. I just couldn’t feel the grip. Now? Just fabulous for fast road wheel swinging and plenty of confidence on track. Just my opinion, mind you. With camber and alignment adjustments it’s as good as I ever expected and I’m even happy with the standard Pirellis.
 
#5 ·
I did some skidpad days with the 4C and that really helped! I think your hump is mental, not ability (esp considering you've pushed many other front engined cars over the limit). I did skidpad because if I'm gonna spin in my 4C for the first time, I wanted it to be where I will not lose the car :)

Now I would say I'm more comfortable with the 4C on track and getting it to slide, definitely rotates faster than all my FR cars so gotta be on the edge.

you definitely can still have code brown moments though! especially in the rain

 
#8 · (Edited)
In the 4C, my first ''off'' was me understeering into a field (a harmless endeavour).

My tail out experiences have been fishtailing events. Out goes the tail, I react, it swings back the other way. Classic fishtail. Speed of hands nor throttle input mattered.

Sounds like uniballs are worth it.

Over the last season of about 3000 miles / 5000 km, I have logged in total about 10,000 miles. Compared to seat time in various other sports cars and sedans, it's just not enough time. This was the first season were I would dive into curves, sweepers and corners with sheer confidence. I could not imagine some things until I had nicely worn tires (tread is not your friend) and real seat time. Finally able to carry ludicrous speeds and feel confident.

Had the same problem in my 911. After real seat time, the rear felt glued to the road.
 
#10 ·
You are not alone.

Keep in mind in mind how this turbo charged engine delivers the power to the drive train. It’s not linear but rather abrupt when you push the loud peddle and you reach the power band.

Try keeping the RPMs high and stay in a lower gear right to the red line. Then when you shift the next gear will be high in the power band and the turbo boost will be less intrusive.

Whenever I’ve been in the car with pro drivers they all do this. Makes for fast exit speeds.
 
#11 ·
That’s the technique Freddie Spencer used to ride those 500cc two-stroke GP Hondas. He kept the revs on the far side of the power band to avoid being spat over handle bars while accelerating out of curves. Fast Freddie, the last bloke to ride the 250cc and 500cc World Championship race season concurrently, racing both events on the same day and winning both World Championships. (I think he overdid it and could never reach those heights again....it must have taken a huge mental and physical toll. Nothing more really to prove to himself.)
 
#12 · (Edited)
I am at the beginning of my 4c and mid-engine learning curve. Not being a pro driver, I am a bit tentative as well not wanting to wrap my new CF-tubbed car around a stationary object.

I have been driving Alfetta, GTV6 and Milanos for 38 years including the last one for almost 20 years with a pretty modified suspension, 2750 lbs 230hp. Pretty much could drive it blindfolded. The Alfa transaxle cars are extraordinarily stable due to high polar moment and the Alfa v6 has quite smooth power delivery. Weak point on the last was brakes, but you can trail brake a transaxle alfa super deep and apply lots of throttle early. The rear dedion suspension, with SZ metal bits and LSD, is 100% located with no funny business, no geometry changes and puts power down.

So I have to learn some new sensitivities. Some track time/skidpad needed as soon as NJ weather warms a bit more. A little follow-the-leader would help. I anticipate suspension in the rear as the first real mod perhaps next winter if I find the behavior too spooky.

Vs. the last gtv6, the 2020 spider (not track suspension) rides better, with the AK exhaust in N is quieter, is easier to park, is much faster in responding to steering inputs vs the gtv6 manual rack, and accelerates harder when the boost comes in. And rear visibility in the spider is way way better than a 2011 Jaguar XJL I used to have (that was a great car 5.0 supercharged RWD). But it evokes the same feeling of driving a car, not a computer, which is perfect. I still have a less heavily modified gtv6 but graduating to the 4c. Perfect pair of Alfa’s. I waited a long time for a new Alfa coupe!
 
#13 ·
Not sure it will work for everyone, but here's what worked for 15 year old me:

1 - grow up on a farm with a long gravel driveway that has some nice twisty bits
2 - buy a Fiat X-1/9
3 - drive X-1/9 sideways through as much of the twisty bits as possible
4 - repeat until winter, then start over, only using snow and ice instead of gravel
 
#15 ·
Mindset thing. The way to look at it is that a mid-engine car is more willing to do what you want. You don't have to constantly argue and put in large requests with severe trail braking/throttle steering. You can finesse it and it will rotate like a ballerina. You should be dreading the fight with the front-engine car, not the delightful cooperation of a mid-engine car.

:)
 
#23 ·
Agree,
to the OP
  • I don't find the 'more power' to be the issue (I am just as scared in the 4C as the 360) but wasn't in my former suspension modded c32/M3 etc
  • THINK .... SPINNING TOP, the mass in a mid-engine is in the middle so will perpetually spin (with virtually no weight on the front/back ends).
  • with your 944 (one of the BEST Balanced cars and easiest to drive fast) you also had a 50/50ish distribution. Difference? You had WEIGHT on the Front (Engine) and Back (Transmission/Transaxle) as such you could pivot weight transfer and power to the rear and guide yourself out of trouble...most of the time.
Heck, even a 1980's 911 with ALL the weight in the back gives my butt a better understanding of what is going to happen.
- KEY is Finesse ....like a Prima Ballerina (wait....didn't someone already say that???) :p
 
#16 ·
I'm afraid of 4C too. Welcome to the club. :giggle:

Code brown 1:
Code brown 2:
Code brown 3:

First make sure that car handles the way you want it to. For me and majority of owners here the 4C felt weird on the limit. This can be sorted out with mods and tweaks. It will make car far more predictable and provide plenty of feedback to warn you about the limit. However, turbo engine, light weight, short wheelbase, wide track and 38/62 weight distribution don't help with the unforgiving characteristics of a 4C. It will remain a killer.
 
#17 · (Edited)
@GMS in video #3, at around 1:01 mark where you lose it... that's unsettling given the orientation of the car and your hands and the track. Were you braking and did the kerbs upset the rear much to contribute?

You seem to have slid into the corner well and there wasn't much, if any, request by you to rotate the car... and you end in a spin.
 
#25 ·
I hit apex on the right too early and consequentially went too wide on the next one - the left, drove over the curb with wheels on the grass and I lost it. That day the car was very unstable. I had it set up with far too much rear toe in (+0°23' per wheel) and the car was snappy. No warnings, no 4-wheel slides, just instant snap oversteer. I had a few nasty moments before that happened but I kept, pushing and pushing and eventually spun off the track. It was a very good lesson that if something doesn't fell right it probably isn't. And it wasn't. :)

That 38/62 sounds terrible but after you tested the turn in and see how non existent the under steer is, how hard that weight pushes the rear wheels into the road, it sounds perfect :) 50/50 is neutral, benign but without utility.
I'd say 45/55 would be ideal. On 4C you can tell just by the heat and wear of the tires that the rear end is doing an extra work all the time compared to the front.
 
#18 ·
I'm kinda the same way, and carefully manage the backend (power) on the street. I think that it has to do with the number of times I have gone "backwards" when I have lost the back end on track that I'm ALWAYS sensitive to the application of power and backend on the street. Most of my tracks are fairly open, so the risk of major damage is quite low compared to the street. Our local streets are not the smoothest, so bumps in corners are quite common where you will upset the suspension (and traction). Also, in general, mid-engine cars are much harder to drift than front engine cars. This is why almost all of the drift cars are front engined.

IMHO, Sissy on the street is a good thing...
 
#21 ·
All the suggestions above are good but I would start getting comfortable with the car as-is.

Warm up the tires find a nice parking lot or skid pad, drive the car in Dynamic / Manual and slowly give it a bit more gas around the corners. Get use to the feedback from the car, and the steering ratio.

The electronic nanny in the 4C is pretty good.

Like the 914 the 4C is totally underestimated and under appreciated as is.
 

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#28 ·
This i like and will do... its basically what yo do in a driving or race school initially when the put you on the skid pad to feel the car at / beyond the limit..


To the peson who commented on the 944S2 being so perfectly balanced.. my God.. YES IT WAS.. That car was amazing in some ways.. i mean, not particularly fast and not everybody loves the styling, and it didnt have razor sharp sports car handling (more of a GT for sure) but so well balanced. Never a pucker moment because you always knew what was going to happen. At 130mph on a curvy mountain road it felt as planted to the ground as it did sitting still. Weird, but my Datsun 510 race car is PERFECTLY balanced also in similar way and it makes it very predictable and easy to push 10/10ths.. yet, at the same time I think that perfect balance has actually hindered my growth as a driver. The car is TOO good. Tryign to learn how to push my finicky and prone-to-snap-around SRF to the limit is proving way more difficult and frustrating and thus, probalby making me a better driver in the process. I have to work way harder to drive perfectly.. my 510 (and the 944S2) would let you get away with mistakes. I think if i get time to get the 4C out on track or even skid pad / parking lot work and just time driving, it probably will help me become a better driver also. challenging. I like that.
 
#34 · (Edited)
@chimera - As others have noted, and track is a fun and SAFE way to understand your car and car dynamics. There are a few members on this forum that are very good drivers @GMS and @4CRacer, just to name a few (there are others, and I apologizes that I missed your name - I haven't had my second Latte yet this AM). No one starts off as a driver with F1 skills. You must learn and practice, practice, practice. Good instruction with a HPDE (High Performance Driving Education) organization is key to learning to drive on track safely and is really the best way for inexperienced drivers to learn the skills required. You will be SLOW when you start, slow on corner entry, slow through the corner, and slow on exit, and then drag race everyone down the straight.... This is ALWAY what happens with novice track drivers. As you progress in skills, you get better about setting up the car for higher speed corner entry and all through the corners. THen being able to feel and manage the traction through and out of the corners. That is what makes a car/driver fast, the corners.... It isn't about who can brake the latest, it is being able to manage speed through the corner.

As @GMS noted, the 4C isn't the easiest car to drive on the limit stock. But at 7 to 8/10, you can have a marvelous time with the car even in stock form. A few minor mods (Uniballs in the rear A-Arms, G-Loc seatbelt, and better brake pads), and the car can take you a long way (and be very quick on track). If you want something easy to drive fast, get a Porsche.....

And if you are super worried about wrecking your car/baby, then you can pay the $ and have track insurance. I do it... It isn't "cheap", but it is "cheap peace of mind"
 
#36 ·
@chimera just to echo what GMS said and maybe add just a tiny bit.. even if you NEVER go beyond 7/10ths doing "track days" (HPDE) in your street car, still, one track day is worth a year of daily driving. Chimera nailed it. If you go with a group that has an in-car instructor with you and you get a decent instructor and you allow yourself to listen and learn, you can learn so much about yourself, your driving, the car, without ever pushing to the point where you are anywhere NEAR going off. You won't have the fastest lap times to brag about or the "oh shit" videos to share, but you will still learn so much and build a stronger understanding of your car and how you and your car can better work together. Its 1000% worth doing. Don't try to push it to the limit.. think of it as a driving school to learn and push a LITTLE BIT MORE.. but nowhere near the limit. Think of yourself as novice when you first do it.. no shame in that. Thats the best way to learn.. Both GMS and DrPyro2k so rightly point out you can have a marvelous time at 7/10ths... but you also will learn a TON and be a safer, better, more fun and happier driver of your car. Even if you never push 9/10th or 10/10ths. If there are walls and your track does not have runoff, then dial it back a notch.. and definitely get IN CAR instruction.. its helpful.

I did track days.. a LOT of them in several differnt cars, for about 6 years before i jumped to wheel to wheel racing. Racing is DIFFERENT.. its not the same as track days. Its SO DIFFERENT. But even now, years into racing, some of the things i learned even on my very first track days are relevant and i come back to them always. Every time i am on the track racing, i apply some of those things i learned while driving 7/10ths on the track in my street car in the begginning. Hell, some people would say i still only drive my race car 7/10ths.. haters gonna hate! LOL
 
#41 ·
@FLORO I can't find anything that indicates the Wavetrac does 100% lockup for the 4c. My guess is that neither company actually does a full lock because our transmissions are used in FWD cars. I have used both Quaife and Wavetrac in two different cars and had zero issues with either. I suspect they are both upgrades from the stock LSD..
 
#44 · (Edited)
Wavetrack diffs for all applications have the wave hub in them that works with the cams to lock the diff if a wheel spins - that is how they all work. The remain open till a wheel spins then that spin rotates cams that lock the diff. Trust me, they lock.
This guys explains it well despite the poor sound on the video.


With a Quaife, you get the same open diff one wheel drive as the factory diff and weaving as it flicks between one and the other.

If a person really isn’t confident to drive the 4C at the limit of its grip, I would suggest, keep the stock diff, leave in AW mode and change to Michelin tyres. Pilot Sport 4S for summer, Pilot Sport Alpin 5 wet/cold.
 
#46 · (Edited)
I'm a mid engine'd guy through and through.
Was "this close" to buying a 550 Maranello until driven. Front engine'd pig IMO. Bought a BB512 instead. Not as fast by any means but a more rewarding experience.
Time moves on and the 599GTB catches my eye. "Enzo" engine and all.
Drove it.
Another front engine'd pig.
They say the F12 and 812 are different. Promise honest Indian.
Not falling for it.
As Patrick Henry used to say; "Give me mid engine'd or give me death".
Or something like that.