[ajax]

@Barth Vader, what did you end up setting your alignment to? It looks like everyone is targeting stock caster and camber for front and rear and you indicated you were going to run 0 toe. I have access to an alignment rack and I was going to check/adjust my alignment in a couple of weeks.

 

[enziof]

@Barth Vader , what did you end up setting your alignment to? It looks like everyone is targeting stock caster and camber for front and rear and you indicated you were going to run 0 toe. I have access to an alignment rack and I was going to check/adjust my alignment in a couple of weeks.

The blocks will change your caster and that is the primary benefit they deliver by increasing the stock caster.
The stock camber settings on the LE is about -1 degree. I was not able to attain this with the blocks due to the shims I would need to achieve that measurement and am running -.5 degree.
Stock setting for tow in calls for -5' of tow out. I adopted Jamie suggested tow in of 2mm measured on the rims.

I did all of my set up using the string method in the barn and will confirm my set up when I get the chance. This methodology is how I detected the increased front track. I would be interested in results from more accurate devices.
I am perfectly happy with my set up as is for my near legal ramblings on less than ideal public roads. Further fine tuning of alignment would best be accomplished in controlled conditions at the track.

 

[Barth Vader]

I'm still tinkering with my alignment. I also had a significant increase in positive camber and track width like most others here in the US.

My dealer didn't have enough shims in stock to get the settings I wanted, so I'm having to make do until I can get back out there for more shims. The delay in updates is mostly due to my schedule, but I hope to get it in by FOTD. Offhand I think that my toe is currently at ~1.25mm, caster is ~4 degrees, and camber is ~0.0. Those are by no means the magic numbers so don't waste the time shooting for them. The tracking was great after the initial install of the blocks, but there was positive camber I wanted to get rid of. Once I started messing with shims to add negative camber, the other settings got out of whack and this was the best I could do with the 12 that my dealer had in stock. As soon as I get to a final setting I like, I'll post it.

By the way, Jamie have you figured out if there is a difference in the NA cars and the EU in the suspension mounting points? That would certainly explain the differences we're seeing over here.

 

[RKBerta]

Toe in/out

For front tow they list it as -0 5'
For rear tow they list it as 40'
Without a leading '-' it is automatically a '+' number. That makes it tow-out.

Page seven.

Racer Z...you are right...it should be toe in....but I think you read the specs incorrectly. While the number is a number without the minus sign...the column before it describing the setting specifically says TOE IN...so really it is toe in....
This is all valuable information though. I know from racing my old 1970 ALFA that alignment can make huge differences in handling AND how comfortable that handling is. Cars for street use and on crowned roads are setup very different than race settings where you want turn in vs. stable straight driving. If you have ever seen the settings drift racers use this is a good example....while excellent for drifting they would be a nightmare for normal use. Be careful how you set your car up....you can make it a monster (and not in a good way).

 

[heelntoe]

My 4C is in for alignment now, and I have shims available. This is the current (before) state of everything, and it's sitting like this over the weekend...which gives us enough time to influence what the after state should look like.

- Just so everyone is clear, I do not have Jaime's blocks at this time.
- I do want to add negative camber to help tire wear on track.
- Tire wear across the typically heavier used left front is not too bad, feathered mostly on the outside edge.
- Here's the one odd anomaly that I just can't wrap my head around and wanted input on from the group: the inside of the right front is heavily worn (tread blocks are gone). It doesn't make sense. Camber is bordering on positive. This is clearly from the track, wearing on the left of the right front tire during right-hand turns. I've just never seen this kind of wear before and it would seem that if I went to stock or beyond negative camber, then it would wear even worse.

 

[4Canada]

Good information to share, heelntoe.
My LF is also worn on the outside edge. Gonna have to check the RF, as I kind of thought it was also worn on the outside, not inside.
That R hind toe measurement is weird. Well, so is the front, IMHO.

Who is doing it - alignment shop or dealer?

EDIT: We'll rule out tire pressure on the wear pattern question - I know you check it routinely.

IF heelntoe's car were a horse:

 

[heelntoe]

It's at Oakville for this and oil change.

Regarding the front - makes complete sense for the insides to be worn if camber was overly negative. Makes complete sense for the outside to be worn from aggressive cornering and not enough negative camber. I'm used to this sort of wear from track driving. My left front is fairly consistently worn across the width, heavier on the outside as expected. Here's the left:

But the right tire I can't make sense of.

 

[Docron]

Shawn, that is very peculiar given your alignment readings and the uneven tire wear. I am gonna run it by my suspension buddy to see what he can make of it.

I am getting my car aligned on Tuesday and am curious as to see what my current specs are after my coilover install and that there is some vibration whle driving at 50mph (which could be an unbalanced tire(s) but am swapping out the R888s for Supersports anyway for potential wet and cool road conditions at Dragon).

On a side note, did your alignment guys have to remove the underbody strip panels to insert shims in the front? Because of the radiator aluminum tubes and the underbody strip panel, it would be impossible to insert shims without removing those panels. Before I drop the car off for alignment, I plan to remove those 2 underbody strip panels as well as remove the rear wheelwell liners so that the alignment shop has an easier time to insert shims in the front as well as get to the top eccentric coilover bolt in the rear to make adjustments.

 

[heelntoe]

Appreciate you running this by your suspension buddy, thanks!

Funny you should mention the panels because they brought this up with me. Yes the front panel needs to be removed. The rear liners too - but even with those removed they're wondering how to reach the top bolts with the fenders on - pretty hard from above, otherwise they'd have to keep removing the wheel, adjust, resettle the car. Sounds like a huge pain.

 

[heelntoe]

@Docron I should add - all this came up because up to this point my dealer has never adjusted rear camber before and was waiting on insight from Alfa.

 

[Racer Z]

Rear camber is an eccentric bolt. Easy to get to.

Nothing needs to be taken off or apart for a normal alignment.

 

[Docron]

In preparation for Dragon, I got my car aligned today. I was slightly worried it would be more off than it was after installing the Novitec coilovers. But, I think the tech did a great job without needing to add any shims to the front. He did adjust the toe and I could notice the difference driving the car home.

 

[heelntoe]

Here's my before and after from today as well. 12 shims were used - I'm guessing mostly to correct the right side but I'm not really sure because I picked the car up after hours. I'll have to stop in and talk to the mechanic another day. Very happy with the rear but was hoping for some more -camber up front.

 

[amg55driver]

I just got a confirmation from my alignment center (Firestone), saying my cambers are not adjustable...??
more like he can not get to the top bolts to adjust the camber... (I have shims on order, so I might have to put them in and bring it again within 12months/12000miles.)

But, after installing the lowering spring, my rear camber was already -2.5~ -2.7 degrees, and the front was -1.7~ -1.9 degrees.
should I bring the camber out more (more positive)? or leave it to where it is now?
I know the tire wear will be crucial with more negative, but seems like everyone wants more negative cambers!

plus toes were off too, but those he can get it to within spec no problem...

 

[Docron]

I just got a confirmation from my alignment center (Firestone), saying my cambers are not adjustable...??
more like he can not get to the top bolts to adjust the camber... (I have shims on order, so I might have to put them in and bring it again within 12months/12000miles.)

But, after installing the lowering spring, my rear camber was already -2.5~ -2.7 degrees, and the front was -1.7~ -1.9 degrees.
should I bring the camber out more (more positive)? or leave it to where it is now?
I know the tire wear will be crucial with more negative, but seems like everyone wants more negative cambers!

plus toes were off too, but those he can get it to within spec no problem...

Firestone, if willing, will have to remove the rear wheel liner to get access to upper bolt to adjust the camber. Its not hard to remove wheel liner...i think 3 allen bolts and like 5-6 Phillips screws.

For front, adjusting camber is adding or removing lower wishbone shims. This will require dropping the front section of the slimmer textile underbody panel to get access to the lower wishbone inner nuts as well as sliding in or out shims from those bolts.

Also, you didn't mention if you were running Jamie's spacer blocks or not as that will affect camber for the front.

I am currently running -2 in the front and -2.5 in the rear and am happy with it so far. I have 2+ hr drive tonight and then track day tomorrow which will be second weekend in a row that I am running this camber while running R888s on the road and track. I will be swapping back to show rims after tomorrow so I will snap some pics of the tire wear on the R888s.

 

[RKBerta]

Wondering if anyone on this forum has used tire pyrometers to test the heating accross the tire tread. It seems lots of members are trying different settings and I wonder how, other than butt feel, we are quantifying these mods. I know years ago some people I raced with used the tire pyrometers and they said they were a great way to measure things like correct tire pressure and suspension settings. They would tell them if they are using the full contact patch of the tire and if they are building up heat equally across the tread.

 

[4Canada]

Wondering if anyone on this forum has used tire pyrometers to test the heating accross the tire tread. It seems lots of members are trying different settings and I wonder how, other than butt feel, we are quantifying these mods. I know years ago some people I raced with used the tire pyrometers and they said they were a great way to measure things like correct tire pressure and suspension settings. They would tell them if they are using the full contact patch of the tire and if they are building up heat equally across the tread.

Seeing as these days you can pick up an app and add-on for your phone camera to do this, it shouldn't be hard!
The analysis, however, might take some experience. A circuit with way more high-speed right hand turns than left, for instance, might give an amateur the wrong impression about his settings.

 

[Racer Z]

Wondering if anyone on this forum has used tire pyrometers to test the heating accross the tire tread. It seems lots of members are trying different settings and I wonder how, other than butt feel, we are quantifying these mods. I know years ago some people I raced with used the tire pyrometers and they said they were a great way to measure things like correct tire pressure and suspension settings. They would tell them if they are using the full contact patch of the tire and if they are building up heat equally across the tread.

Seeing as these days you can pick up an app and add-on for your phone camera to do this, it shouldn't be hard!
The analysis, however, might take some experience. A circuit with way more high-speed right hand turns than left, for instance, might give an amateur the wrong impression about his settings.

I've used several types of pyrometers, but not on my 4C.

For tire temperatures, the best type is one with a needle point that can get just under the surface. That's more accurate than any infrared device for this purpose.

I've used infrared type pyrometers and they're handy, easy-to-use and cost effective. Because they don't touch the object they can give false temperatures. I've experimented with them to know that they can be off several hundred degrees f depending on the surface type, texture and color.

For tires, the surface temperature isn't important. The core temperature is important. Pricking the tire with a needle maybe 5mm will do the trick. It's all about how the tire dissipates heat. If everything is adjusted well, you should see fairly even temperatures across the tire with three readings, left edge, middle & right edge.

Seriously, the most accurate readings will be when you can't read the tire, while driving. During the time it takes to slow down, get to your pit and stop, the temperature has changed. It spreads out corrupting the surrounding areas.

Make a fast exit and a hot stop in the hot pit as close to the track as safely possible. You should have a team of two or three ready to jump into action.
- driver stays in car
- one person to record numbers on paper
- one person to measure tire temperatures and shout out numbers
- if you have the extra helpers, one can get tire pressures and shout them out

If you care to experiment, do a second reading real fast and you'll see the numbers are much different now. Heat soak is corrupting the readings.

 

[RKBerta]

4Canada...the idea is not so much side to side of the car (for the reasons you mentioned) but across each tires tread. I remember on race slicks if you were good you could "read" the tire after a hot lap to visually see if it was working right or if the center of the tread was under or over heated vs. the outer edges. As we know a race tire is not going to work unless it gets up to operating temperature...but as it heats up around a corner...it than cools down on the straights and repeats on the next corner. That is why race teams use different compounds for different tracks and even for specific tires on each corner of the car. My oldest son was on a NASCAR car and later NASCAR racing truck team....tire compound selection at each corner of the car was a very important part of car preparation for each track..especially on oval circuits.

Seeing as these days you can pick up an app and add-on for your phone camera to do this, it shouldn't be hard!
The analysis, however, might take some experience. A circuit with way more high-speed right hand turns than left, for instance, might give an amateur the wrong impression about his settings.

 

[infanterene]

I had my alignment checked yesterday at Apex alignment in Miami. Ive used them before because they are reasonable, careful and he races cars.

My car came with toe OUT on the front and more so on the right than the left (FL1/32 and 1/8). Camber was .9 on the front and even side to side.
Rear toe was and also off from side to side (L 1/8 and R 5/32). Cambers were nice and even with .9 front and 2 in the rear. Caster was only 2.2 degrees.

He set the front toe to zero and the rears to 5/32 on each side. My car has improved, it follows ruts less and I can drive with one hand and drink a soda if Im careful. I feel like the car actually has MORE steering now too.

I am considering Jamie blocks in order to get more caster as most cars have 3 or 4 degrees more( Then I can drink coffee without fear). Does anyone know how much caster I will end up with after the blocks? I also wonder if 5/32 toe in is too much for the rear because it doesn't feel right?